Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[mojo pixy]

I think the second-hand nature of an item is key, actually. The point is not to support the abuse of animals, buying a used pair of leather boots from (say) a PDSA charity shop actually benefits animals. It's all very well for fundamentalist veganists to condemn it but this is why veganism gets a reputation for encouraging elitism.

 

[bellaozzydog]

There should be some cut-off point for how long animal matter has been dead for before you can use it.
We've worked out from this thread that it is probably somewhere between 50 years and 65 million years.

Maybe a points system like Weight Watchers - one leather item older than you are = 1 VegSyn point. One leather item you could feasibly have bought in your lifetime = 10 points.

Or something.

Then you can wear a badge with your number and the person with the lowest number gets to be smuggest.

Are you just being a dick about it now?

 

[8ball]

I think the second-hand nature of an item is key, actually. The point is not to support the abuse of animals, buying a used pair of leather boots from (say) a PDSA charity shop actually benefits animals. It's all very well for fundamentalist veganists to condemn it but this is why veganism gets a reputation for encouraging elitism.

It's like the Jedi Council.

Are you just being a dick about it now?

Maybe my zinc levels are low...

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Whilst I think that line of reasoning is plausible, I would not write off the opposing vegan viewpoint as ‘fundamentalist’ or dogmatic. There’s still a sense in which you are reinforcing to yourself and others that animals are resources for us to exploit. Imagine if you could buy products made of human skins. It wouldn’t make it acceptable to say that you brought them second hand or that they are the mere byproducts or forced organ extractions.

Exactly. As I said earlier, go with feels right according to your ethics and your conscience regardless of whether others agree or disagree. In a largely non-vegan world it is going to be very difficult (and maybe impossible) to completely avoid using any animal products, including leather. I buy my shoes from vegetarian shoes and ethical wares and try my best to avoid leather wherever possible. I still have a pair of brown leather shoes I bought for a wedding and we have a leather sofa in the house (my father in laws), my car has leather trim around the steering wheel and gear lever. I will still go out of my way, whenever possible to buy things that are not made from exploited dead animals but won't beat myself up over it if it's not practical. I agree with your point to not right off the opposing viewpoint and "human leather". There are some who won't want to have ANYTHING to do with leather at all, first hand, second hand or fifth hand. That's a legitimate point of view imo.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Exactly. As I said earlier, go with feels right according to your ethics and your conscience regardless of whether others agree or disagree. In a largely non-vegan world it is going to be very difficult (and maybe impossible) to completely avoid using any animal products, including leather. I buy my shoes from vegetarian shoes and ethical wares and try my best to avoid leather wherever possible. I still have a pair of brown leather shoes I bought for a wedding and we have a leather sofa in the house (my father in laws), my car has leather trim around the steering wheel and gear lever. I will still go out of my way, whenever possible to buy things that are not made from exploited dead animals but won't beat myself up over it if it's not practical. I agree with your point to not right off the opposing viewpoint and "human leather". There are some who won't want to have ANYTHING to do with leather at all, first hand, second hand or fifth hand. That's a legitimate point of view imo.

Tell me that's a typo

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Tell me that's a typo

No it wasn't. Your point?

 

[bellaozzydog]

No it wasn't. Your point?

I'm just not sure how ethical human leather is

ETA I didn't read Jeff robinsons post which would have explained

Carry on

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I'm just not sure how ethical human leather is

Yeah well you obviously haven't understood my reference to the point that Jeff made in his post.

ybbxf yvxr lrg nabgure gvzr jnfgre

 

[DotCommunist]

I read a viewpoint that I had never considered but found hard to gainsay. All ivory trade should be banned, there is simply too much scope for poached ivory to enter into 'legitimacy'. Surely that'd be your problem with ethical leather and the reason why even if that mink coat IS from farmed aminals you might still get paint thrown on you

 

[PaoloSanchez]

ETA I didn't read Jeff robinsons post which would have explained

This is what happens when scoring points and trying to catch the other person out becomes the priority over having a reasonable discussion.

 

[8ball]

I read a viewpoint that I had never considered but found hard to gainsay. All ivory trade should be banned, there is simply too much scope for poached ivory to enter into 'legitimacy'. Surely that'd be your problem with ethical leather and the reason why even if that mink coat IS from farmed aminals you might still get paint thrown on you

Assuming you agree with the ivory trade premise to begin with.

And would that mean anything that *looks* like leather should also be banned?
Or stuff that *might* be wool (we haven't even got onto wool yet afaik...)?

 

[bellaozzydog]

This is what happens when scoring points and trying to catch the other person out becomes the priority over having a reasonable discussion.

You need to take life more seriously

An honest mistake to make

 

[Jeff Robinson]

This is what happens when scoring points and trying to catch the other person out becomes the priority over having a reasonable discussion.

Be fair PS, I think it was an honest misunderstanding on his behalf.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

You need to take life more seriously

An honest mistake to make

Yeah...wait, whut?

Be fair PS, I think it was an honest misunderstanding on his behalf.

Well maybe it was, however the speed of the reply and the previous posts made it resemble another one of those tiresome "gotcha" posts. If it wasn't and if as you say it was a genuine response to a hasty misreading then I stand corrected.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Yeah...wait, whut?


Well maybe it was, however the speed of the reply and the previous posts made it resemble another one of those tiresome "gotcha" posts. If it wasn't and if as you say it was a genuine response to a hasty misreading then I stand corrected.

Nope it was a genuine mistake.

My previous posts indicate a change of position/attitude after I read the vegan website link supplied not "another one of those tiresome "gotcha" posts"

Go back to page one, read the title of the thread and reflect

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Tm9vYiBOdW1wdHkgYWxlcnQhISAK Tm90IGdvaW5nIHRvIGJvdGhlciB3YXN0aW5nIGFueSBtb3JlIHRpbWUgd2l0aCB0aGlzIGlkaW90Lgo=

 

[PaoloSanchez]

The words in a speech from the dude who came up with the word might be of interest to some of the "it's only a diet" brigade :-

The word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude - as far as possible and practical - all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans and the environment.

Spoiler: Full extract from a Donald Watson Speech

The word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude - as far as possible and practical - all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans and the environment.

In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.

If the Vegan ideal of non-exploitation were generally adopted it would be the greatest peaceful revolution ever known, abolishing vast industries and establishing new ones in the better interests of men and animals alike.

There is an obvious danger in leaving the fulfilment of our ideals to posterity, for posterity may not have our ideals. We do so without fear because we feel that a moral philosophy combined with a dash of common sense is a more rational guide than theories hatched in vivisection laboratories.

We will not accept that adequate nutrition need violate conscience. Few dieticians outside the Vegan movement had tried living without animal food, or had made any serious attempt to solve the diet problem philosophically. As it must be solved.

Without the guidance of philosophy scientific investigation soon floundered in a morass of error.

A stricken conscience is not a health measure for anyone. We have to believe our finer feelings of this and proceed from there as stronger men and women. But one is reminded of the reply given by somebody when slavery was abolished and one of the people against abolition said... "What on earth is going to happen to the families of the people who make the whips if slavery is abolished?" Well the obvious answer to that -- they are given more profitable humane work to do! And that is the great challenge facing mankind.

...and if I hadn't formed the Society, someone else may have done it, very soon, although it may have had a different name.

I did appeal to my readers to suggest what the name might be, and I had a list of very bizarre suggestions, which some have already heard of - I won't list them now - but, in an inspired moment, I settled for the word "VEGAN" which was immediately accepted and over the years became part of our language and is now in almost every world dictionary, I suppose.

I think the genie is out of the bottle, no-one can every put it back to the ignorant days before 1944, when this seed was planted by people full of hope, full of aspiration that surely this idea would attract enough followers for it at least to survive.

...the Vegan movement, which is now, of course, an ever-growing world movement, I like to think the greatest movement that ever was! Because it's the only one now, that can save Mankine.

We don't know the spiritual advancements that long term Veganism - I mean not over years or even decades, but over generations, would have on human life. It would be certainly a different civilisation, and the first one in the whole of our history that would truly deserve the title of being a civilisation.

 

[8ball]

I've read that the definition of the word "vegan" is pretty much the original definition of "vegetarian" (which then got watered down a bit).

 

[mojo pixy]

It's a lifestyle, it's a philosophy. It includes everything, not just diet.
It's barely a step away from an identity unto itself.
As a matter of fact it is an identity.
If that's what you want.

 

[8ball]

It's a lifestyle, it's a philosophy. It includes everything, not just diet.
It's barely a step away from an identity unto itself.
As a matter of fact it is an identity.
If that's what you want.

Hey, I'm not one to knock people's hobbies.
Gotta have a hobby.

 

[ddraig]

Happy xmas thread

 

[fucthest8]

Happy xmas thread

I do love that guy. "I'm 12% more spiritual than you"

(From a different vid by the way)

 

[8ball]

Merry Xmas ddraig!

(Maybe give Tofurkey a go next year)

 

[coley]

Buggerinell,
How small, has the head of this particular pin become?
If you want to munch on dead protein, crack on, no need to justify your position, your in the majority, congratulate yourselves.
Your, otherwise socialist views and beliefs, have no relevance whatsoever to the rise of of a coke drinking burger munching, clueless twat?
Rest easy, the hungry masses of the world know you are tweeting on their behalf.

 

[8ball]

Pickman’s would be having an aneurysm at those commas..

 

[mrs quoad]

So, 94 pages on, any converts?

 

[PaoloSanchez]

The vegan Christmas dinner challenge, In Short - BBC Radio 5 live
One of them even had bacon socks on.

Spoiler

I wonder of that chef is the original nutter?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Buggerinell,
How small, has the head of this particular pin become?
If you want to munch on dead protein, crack on, no need to justify your position, your in the majority, congratulate yourselves.
Your, otherwise socialist views and beliefs, have no relevance whatsoever to the rise of of a coke drinking burger munching, clueless twat?
Rest easy, the hungry masses of the world know you are tweeting on their behalf.

Too many layers of sarcasm for me to unpick

 

[hash tag]

It's a lifestyle, it's a philosophy. It includes everything, not just diet.
It's barely a step away from an identity unto itself.
As a matter of fact it is an identity.
If that's what you want.

Can't we just have a vegan diet without living the vegan lifestyle?
How many people use toothpaste where some of it's products have been tested on animals I wonder? Soap, shower gel, shampoo Etc?

 

[mojo pixy]

Too many layers of sarcasm for me to unpick

But not more than the thread deserves.

Can't we just have a vegan diet without living the vegan lifestyle?
How many people use toothpaste where some of it's products have been tested on animals I wonder? Soap, shower gel, shampoo Etc?

Ask the fundies, they're the ones with the keys to the big old rulebook. The rest of us mere hypocrites just have to tug our forelocks humbly and accept we don't get a say.