Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[mr steev]

To be clear, if your diet includes no animal products of any kind, you're vegan. Sanctimony and self-righteousness are 100% optional.

So if you're diet includes no animal products, but you're wearing leather shoes, a fur coat, a silk scarf, use shampoo made with milk and fish products, and make-up tested on animals you're a vegan?

If you're diet includes no animal products you have a vegan diet.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

So if you're diet includes no animal products, but you're wearing leather shoes, a fur coat, a silk scarf, use shampoo made with milk and fish products, and make-up tested on animals you're a vegan?

If you're diet includes no animal products you have a vegan diet.

Some people don't want to look at the ethical side at all and in fact want to run a mile away from it. (don't mention the war). If you eat vegan food then you're a vegan. Nothing else to it, right?

 

[8ball]

Some people don't want to look at the ethical side at all and in fact want to run a mile away from it. (don't mention the war). If you eat vegan food then you're a vegan. Nothing else to it, right?

There’s been a good bit of question-dodging considering this stuff is meant to be so foundational...

 

[8ball]

if you do enough yogaing you can slow your heart rate down through meditation- one of the few mind over body claims from yoga that is provable iirc. What special moves does advanced vegan philosophy get you? hadoken?

That's not an exclusively yoga thing tbf.

I expect the vegan "power moves" are more subtle.
Like, health, vigour, humility and a fine sense of humour.

 

[gentlegreen]

tbh, I don't really know what you're getting at here. So what if he was being persuaded by others to supplement? Some people say "you must definitely supplement" and others say "supplement if you are concerned, check your results". As far as I'm concerned both are ok, it's up to the individual to use their brains, investigate for themselves and figure out what they think is best for them.

It's like B12 is the great taboo subject for vegans, and I confess it steered me towards fish-eating - though it's actually omega3 that will clinch it for me - though I already eat flaxseed and seaweed and will be eating a lot more algae of various kinds in the future.

 

[A380]

... will be eating a lot more algae of various kinds in the future.

That’s where you had me: at algae.

 

[8ball]

That’s where you had me: at algae.

Laverbread. Mmmm.

(not the tinned stuff, mind - that's hideous)

 

[Jeff Robinson]

It's like B12 is the great taboo subject for vegans, and I confess it steered me towards fish-eating - though it's actually omega3 that will clinch it for me - though I already eat flaxseed and seaweed and will be eating a lot more algae of various kinds in the future.

I don't know any vegans for whom b12 is a 'taboo'. Plant milks and yogurts are fortified with roughly the same amounts you'd find in cow's milk and yogurt. Many cereals are fortified as are marmite and yeast. And a standard multivit contains 100% RDA. Couldn't be easier. As for omega 3 - you can get all your ALA needs from flaxseed, hempseed, walnuts and a number of other sources. As for DHA and EPA, you can get algae supplements for those too if you so wish. It's a much cleaner source too - much less saturated fat and none of the cholesterol and toxins that are found in fish.

 

[8ball]

That's a lot of flaxseed etc. But there is algae so that's good.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Well imo if there is any "devaluation" going on here it would be the other way around, reducing veganism to just a mere diet and ignoring or dismissing the core tenets. It's a bit like wanting to be called a racing driver because you once sat in a passenger seat of a Lada ffs. "Don't you devalue my racing driver credentials".


No shade was being thrown, I think you are being a tad sensitive. I'm just describing it as it is. Being vegan is more that just a diet, that's just how it is.

That was rhetorical rather than directed at you

 

[PaoloSanchez]

It's like B12 is the great taboo subject for vegans, and I confess it steered me towards fish-eating - though it's actually omega3 that will clinch it for me - though I already eat flaxseed and seaweed and will be eating a lot more algae of various kinds in the future.

Well that's not how I see it at all. I think it's been made out to be a much bigger deal than it actually is as if vegans have been dropping dead left right and centre from B12 deficiency. Hardly anyone knew what it was barely 10 years ago and now it's apparently such a big problem.
Maybe if ever I were to eventually reject this whole vegan malarky I can use B12 as a convenient get out clause citing those invisible hordes of severely nutrient deficient vegans.

 

[gentlegreen]

And a standard multivit contains 100% RDA. Couldn't be easier. As for omega 3 - you can get all your ALA needs from flaxseed, hempseed, walnuts and a number of other sources. As for DHA and EPA, you can get algae supplements for those too if you so wish. It's a much cleaner source too - much less saturated fat and none of the cholesterol and toxins that are found in fish.

Taking B12 and D pills annoys me already - I plan to solve the vitamin D problem by growing my own fungi with solar exposure.
Sardines and mackerel would supply omega 3, B12 and even more D.

My current diet delivers all the other essential nutrients in spades.
I couldn't eat more kale and carrots if I tried.

Multivits are never going to happen and I baulk at paying a significant amount for a daily fix of omega 3.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

There’s been a good bit of question-dodging considering this stuff is meant to be so foundational...

I assume readers to be smart enough to do their own research if they're interested and are do not need to be spoonfed. There are plenty of resources out there for those that are genuine and not just here to mock and take the piss.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I don't know any vegans for whom b12 is a 'taboo'. Plant milks and yogurts are fortified with roughly the same amounts you'd find in cow's milk and yogurt. Many cereals are fortified as are marmite and yeast. And a standard multivit contains 100% RDA. Couldn't be easier. As for omega 3 - you can get all your ALA needs from flaxseed, hempseed, walnuts and a number of other sources. As for DHA and EPA, you can get algae supplements for those too if you so wish. It's a much cleaner source too - much less saturated fat and none of the cholesterol and toxins that are found in fish.

B12 has replaced "b...b...but...where do you get your protein?" as the goto nutrient to launch a preemptive strike against vegans.
Whatever diet you are on, be it vegan or otherwise, if you have concerns get yourself tested and supplement if necessary. How difficult is that? I haven't taken any B12 supplementation (well not directly anyway) and after 20 years of being a vegan my blood tests are fine. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about tbh. Much ado about nothing.

 

[8ball]

I assume readers to be smart enough to do their own research if they're interested and are do not need to be spoonfed. There are plenty of resources out there for those that are genuine and not just here to mock and take the piss.

Was more interested in your take on it considering I can find a million weird opinions online if I want.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Was more interested in your take on it considering I can find a million weird opinions online if I want.

Fine then if you are genuinely curious and have a specific question that I haven't already covered in my nearly 400 posts in this thread, ask away. If you are a one of the many piss take posters looking for an attack angle then I'm not particularly interested.

 

[8ball]

Fine then if you are genuinely curious and have a specific question that I haven't already covered in my nearly 400 posts in this thread, ask away. If you are a one of the many piss take posters looking for an attack angle then I'm not particularly interested.

The question is there in one of my previous posts on this thread. Which I couldn't be arsed to count, frankly.

 

[mojo pixy]

So if you're diet includes no animal products, but you're wearing leather shoes, a fur coat, a silk scarf, use shampoo made with milk and fish products, and make-up tested on animals you're a vegan?

If you're diet includes no animal products you have a vegan diet.

Oh right.

And if the leather shoes, fur coat, silk scarf, milky shampoo and dodgy makeup were found / given / donated or otherwise acquired for free then........?

Getting leather shoes from a charity shop supports no leather industry but does support the charity who run the shop.

Vegan is a dietary thing. There are other aspects to supporting animal rights and if someone wants to call that stuff "veganism" then fine. But you don't need to adhere to all of it to be vegan. Just don't eat animal products.

I'll leave the vegan wearing second-hand leather to the fundamentalists to deal with. "You're not really vegan you hypocritical leather boots wearer" is definitely part of that non-angry vegan approach we've heard so much about in this thread

 

[PaoloSanchez]

The question is there in one of my previous posts on this thread.

Funny that, you've accused me of dodging questions when I have already answered the question that you posed and you can't be arsed to find the question that I'm supposed to have dodged. Yeah right.

Which I couldn't be arsed to count, frankly.

...and why should you need to count anything in order to find the allegedly dodged question? Looks like your another one of those time wasting PTP's.

 

[8ball]

Funny that, you've accused me of dodging questions when I have already answered the question that you posed and you can't be arsed to find the question that I'm supposed to have dodged. Yeah right.

No, you didn't. Nor did you even seem to read my last post properly.

This exchange tells me enough, though.

 

[mojo pixy]

Some people don't want to look at the ethical side at all and in fact want to run a mile away from it. (don't mention the war). If you eat vegan food then you're a vegan. Nothing else to it, right?

Well, regarding honey, you posted....

See what your ethics is comfortable with and go with that.

So why not apply that to leather, which is after all merely a by-product of the meat industry? Like say supporting a charity who do good work in the community, by buying items from their shop which are animal products (eg leather clothes or shoes) and thereby not supporting the actual meat/leather industry because of not buying them new.

"See what your ethics is comfortable with" ... or is this too complex now?

 

[mr steev]

Oh right.

And if the leather shoes, fur coat, silk scarf, milky shampoo and dodgy makeup were found / given / donated or otherwise acquired for free then........?

Getting leather shoes from a charity shop supports no leather industry but does support the charity who run the shop.

Vegan is a dietary thing. There are other aspects to supporting animal rights and if someone wants to call that stuff "veganism" then fine. But you don't need to adhere to all of it to be vegan. Just don't eat animal products.

I'll leave the vegan wearing second-hand leather to the fundamentalists to deal with. "You're not really vegan you hypocritical leather boots wearer" is definitely part of that non-angry vegan approach we've heard so much about in this thread

Veganisn is a lifestyle not just a diet.
Definition of veganism
Wearing second hand leather does not 'avoid the use of all animal products'

 

[8ball]

Veganisn is a lifestyle not just a diet.
Definition of veganism
Wearing second hand leather does not 'avoid the use of all animal products'

Best quote from that site "A dead vegan is no use to anyone".

 

[PaoloSanchez]

No, you didn't. Nor did you even seem to read my last post properly.

This exchange tells me enough, though.

So, still not able to cite any of the question(s) that you claim were dodged. This exchange confirms your PTP status and I won't be bothering to waste any more time responding unless there's a drastic quality upgrade. Have a nice day, sir.

 

[nuffsaid]

 

[8ball]

No relation to anyone on this thread, obv.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Best quote from that site "A dead vegan is no use to anyone".

Having read the site and been educated, I now know I was never a vegan.

I'm currently a gluten and dairy free pescatarian who likes a boiled egg

Posted from my second hand leather sofa

This should solve my vegan annoyer status

 

[mojo pixy]

Veganisn is a lifestyle not just a diet.
Definition of veganism

A lifestyle, of course.

With over 22,000 products and services registered with our Vegan Trademark alone, living a vegan lifestyle has never been easier. Browse online today.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Veganisn is a lifestyle not just a diet.
Definition of veganism
Wearing second hand leather does not 'avoid the use of all animal products'

I think there is some space for a discussion about wearing second-hand leather and veganism. I know somebody who’s been an ethical vegan for over 3 decades (and has set up his own animal rights NGO) and he is not against buying second hand leather goods. His reasoning is this: by buying these goods second-hand he is not financially supporting animal exploitation and is minimising his negative impact on the environment.

Whilst I think that line of reasoning is plausible, I would not write off the opposing vegan viewpoint as ‘fundamentalist’ or dogmatic. There’s still a sense in which you are reinforcing to yourself and others that animals are resources for us to exploit. Imagine if you could buy products made of human skins. It wouldn’t make it acceptable to say that you brought them second hand or that they are the mere byproducts or forced organ extractions.

I think if you do not have access to alternatives to leather, or cannot afford those alternatives, then buying second hand leather is within the ‘as far as practicable and possible’ qualifier in the Vegan Soc definition.

 

[8ball]

I think there is some space for a discussion about wearing second-hand leather and veganism.

There should be some cut-off point for how long animal matter has been dead for before you can use it.
We've worked out from this thread that it is probably somewhere between 50 years and 65 million years.

Maybe a points system like Weight Watchers - one leather item older than you are = 1 VegSyn point. One leather item you could feasibly have bought in your lifetime = 10 points.

Or something.

Then you can wear a badge with your number and the person with the lowest number gets to be smuggest.