Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[SpookyFrank]

why do you think it is a term for "winning over hearts and minds"??

I don't. I'm assuming that most vegans would like to see more people come around to their way of thinking, and I'm suggesting that inventing a word for 'them' to explicitly separate them from the righteous vegan 'us' is the opposite of seeking common ground.

And eating meat is neither a belief system nor a purely personal choice. It has cultural and psychological factors to it. It is not something that can or should be summed up and then dismissed with a single word, not if you ever plan on communicating with any 'carnists' anyway.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Frank seemed pretty annoyed and wanting to teach people a lesson, but then the term meant nothing a few posts later

n

There's what the people who use it think it means (bloodthirsty monster) and then what it means to an ordinary person (nothing).

 

[Spymaster]

Frank seemed pretty annoyed and wanting to teach people a lesson, but then the term meant nothing a few posts later

He didn't seem annoyed to me. He just articulated why people would find the term ridiculous and why it's use is counterproductive.

why are people just taking the piss? serious question

Ok, let's figure it out.

Why did you use the term "carnist" instead of "meat-eater" or "carnivore" ?

 

[SpookyFrank]

why you so annoyed by it then? ffs

I just find it sad to see people trying do something and getting it totally arse backwards.

 

[Lorca]

mrs quoad said: ↑
The number of people saying they know no militant vegans leaves me wondering if our social circle is, perhaps, an artefact of the trendy hipster fringes of academia, baby yoga, NCT, Steiner toddler mornings, organic bakeries, and the militant fringe of assorted breastfeeding tubthumper collectives in which we commingle.

Are there really none in Kettering, DotCommunist ?

there must be one or two surely, but not n my orbit.

Theres some serious Hunt Sabs round there, or used tobe anyway - the northants group were the business, as it were.

 

[DotCommunist]

Theres some serious Hunt Sabs round there, or used tobe anyway - the northants group were the business, as it were.

I know a fella in northampton whose spoken about drinking with sabs and that- I don't think they've gone anywhere. I believe he knows them through punk stuff, but he's not a close friend, more a rando I see in shared circles. Safe as houses mind.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Incidentally there are are no human 'carnivores'. We are omnivores. And we are omnivores as a species. no matter what you personally decide to eat you're still an omnivore. A cat is still a carnivore even if you only feed it vegan cat food. It's a point of biology, not choice or circumstance.

This is not a defence of meat eating, which is no longer necessary for our survival, only a clarification of a techical point that often gets mauled to death in these discussions.

 

[Yossarian]

Incidentally there are are no human 'carnivores'. We are omnivores. And we are omnivores as a species. no matter what you personally decide to eat you're still an omnivore. A cat is still a carnivore even if you only feed it vegan cat food. It's a point of biology, not choice or circumstance.

This is not a defence of meat eating, which is no longer necessary for our survival, only a clarification of a techical point that often gets mauled to death in these discussions.

If we're all technically omnivores, doesn't that make the term 'carnist' useful after all?

 

[campanula]

My farmer neighbour keeps beef cows, having been dairy farmers for generations (no money in it) but is also a vegetarian (I don't think he is vegan). His cows are truly gorgeous (I actually bought a book - 'know your cow' so I could recognise the breeding types). I would certainly eat them - they graze on Postwick marsh all summer and get fat in the barns eating hay, sugar beet and barley all winter. His 'girls' go off to some London butchers who charge top price for organic meat...but the swine won't tell me who so a juicy steak is not likely. Personally, I am not very picky - either what I eat or what others choose...and have been both vegetarian and vegan when circumstances dictated. Have no problems catching, skinning and preparing my own food...and even grow a bit. I think being flexible and adaptable is more useful than being dogmatic. If land-use was reformed, it would not bother me to miss out on meat - it has been years since a battery chicken or egg went into my mouth...or processed food such as bacon and sausages...but if I was starving, I expect I would manage it. Food is terribly emotional (and political) but for me, it is a means to an end (survival) and I am OK with whatever is around/I can afford. Veganism does appear to be a choice which is not easily affordable if one is going to keep on eating a 'traditional' diet with meat and dairy since paying 3X for some rubbery vegan cheese or weird meat alternates is not doable on a low wage or benefits.
eta - there is a lot of shooting in Norfolk - I came across a fat wood-pigeon still warm...and had no problem whacking a breast off and sticking it on the barbecue. While arguing who got the last sliver, the collie nipped in and stole it. Roadkill is another possibility (I eye the muntjac with some resentment - the tree destroying bastards)...although nesting buzzards appear to have stripped my wood of squirrel and conies. Probably wouldn't barbecue a vole though.

 

[ddraig]

Vegetarian beef farmer gives herd to animal sanctuary - BBC News

A vegetarian farmer has given his herd of cows to an animal sanctuary to protect them from the slaughterhouse.

Jay Wilde, 59, who farms in Ashbourne, Derbyshire, sent 63 cattle to a Norfolk rescue centre as he could no longer bear to send them to be killed.

Mr Wilde, a vegetarian for 25 years, grew up herding cows and took over the family farm when his father died.

"Cows have good memories and a range of emotions. They form relationships. I've even seen them cry," he said.

"It was very difficult to do your best to look after them and then send them to the slaughterhouse for what must be a terrifying death."

The Hillside Animal Sanctuary near Frettenham said 30 of the cows are pregnant and all the animals "would live out their lives essentially as pets".

Founder, Wendy Valentine, said Mr Wilde is not the first farmer to have donated his herd.

She recalls a couple who "could not bear to continue dairy farming and kept their cows as pets with the help of the sanctuary".

 

[SpookyFrank]

If we're all technically omnivores, doesn't that make the term 'carnist' useful after all?

Ooh, now that I think about it...no. No it doesn't. You can see from the definition quoted above that it's not a neutral, descriptive term but one loaded with implications and derision.

 

[SpookyFrank]

mrs quoad said: ↑
The number of people saying they know no militant vegans leaves me wondering if our social circle is, perhaps, an artefact of the trendy hipster fringes of academia, baby yoga, NCT, Steiner toddler mornings, organic bakeries, and the militant fringe of assorted breastfeeding tubthumper collectives in which we commingle.

Are there really none in Kettering, DotCommunist ?

there must be one or two surely, but not n my orbit.

Theres some serious Hunt Sabs round there, or used tobe anyway - the northants group were the business, as it were.

Breastfeeding not really what I'd call a fringe pursuit. It's literally what breasts are for.

 

[Yossarian]

What word would you suggest vegans use to refer to people who believe eating meat is natural and normal?

 

[Calamity1971]

He was on country file ddraig. The presenter, also a farmer couldn't get his head round why he didn't send them to slaughter for 50 grand to help his new organic/ vegan cookery school business

 

[Calamity1971]

Breastfeeding not really what I'd call a fringe pursuit. It's literally what breasts are for.

As they are on a cow, but we take the calf away and claim it as ours.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Vegetarian beef farmer gives herd to animal sanctuary - BBC News

A vegetarian farmer has given his herd of cows to an animal sanctuary to protect them from the slaughterhouse.

Jay Wilde, 59, who farms in Ashbourne, Derbyshire, sent 63 cattle to a Norfolk rescue centre as he could no longer bear to send them to be killed.

Mr Wilde, a vegetarian for 25 years, grew up herding cows and took over the family farm when his father died.

"Cows have good memories and a range of emotions. They form relationships. I've even seen them cry," he said.

"It was very difficult to do your best to look after them and then send them to the slaughterhouse for what must be a terrifying death."

The Hillside Animal Sanctuary near Frettenham said 30 of the cows are pregnant and all the animals "would live out their lives essentially as pets".

Founder, Wendy Valentine, said Mr Wilde is not the first farmer to have donated his herd.

She recalls a couple who "could not bear to continue dairy farming and kept their cows as pets with the help of the sanctuary".

Most farmers genuinely care about their animals. It's a strange bit of cognitive dissonance to then send them off to slaughter after years of devotion and care, but not a million miles away from lovingly raising your kids and then feeding them face-first into the authoritarian school system and then the capitalist wage economy. At least cows die quickly, and with their souls intact.

 

[SpookyFrank]

What word would you suggest vegans use to refer to people who believe eating meat is natural and normal?

People have names, so using those is always an option.

I refuse to believe that the greatest obstacle to the moral and spiritual development of humankind is a shortage of categories.

 

[Tom A]

As much as the whiny preaching of the veganism-as-virtue signalling brigade annoys me online, I must admit I have never really encountered such people in real life, other than the occasional stall I see in town, plus the "Go Vegan World" bus advertisement campaigns of a few months back.

 

[Sue]

What word would you suggest vegans use to refer to people who believe eating meat is natural and normal?

I'm veggie but have two vegan sisters. We tend to use carnivores, veggies and vegans.

Maybe omnivores would be more correct than carnivores but we've been using carnivores in this context for a v long time so...

 

[ddraig]

Most farmers genuinely care about their animals. It's a strange bit of cognitive dissonance to then send them off to slaughter after years of devotion and care, but not a million miles away from lovingly raising your kids and then feeding them face-first into the authoritarian school system and then the capitalist wage economy. At least cows die quickly, and with their souls intact.

what a fucking pathetic fucking post
for fucks sake man

 

[Yossarian]

People have names, so using those is always an option.

People also have words that they use to describe things, which saves a little time when you want to refer to groups of them.

It's all probably a little nit-picky, but a thread about veganism isn't a bad place for wondering what the antonym to veganism is.

 

[Spymaster]

If we're all technically omnivores, doesn't that make the term 'carnist' useful after all?

No. Why would it?

 

[mrs quoad]

Breastfeeding not really what I'd call a fringe pursuit. It's literally what breasts are for.

I didn't refer to breastfeeding as a fringe pursuit

 

[SpookyFrank]

As much as the whiny preaching of the veganism-as-virtue signalling brigade annoys me online, I must admit I have never really encountered such people in real life, other than the occasional stall I see in town, plus the "Go Vegan World" bus advertisement campaigns of a few months back.

The circles I move in probably expose me to far more unreasonable vegans than the average punter, so I may be a bit biased as to how many militant vegans there are. Mrs Frank is a vegan, without being a dick about it. Most vegans are able to pull off the same trick with minimal effort. But the troublesome evangelists do exist and IME ordinary vegans get as sick of them as I do.

There are lots of militant vegans with very dodgy human-based politics, and lots more who will tolerate endless sexism, racism, homophobia and (insert shit behaviour here) from people as long as they turn up to meetings and help out on the stall of a Saturday afternoon.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I didn't refer to breastfeeding as a fringe pursuit

Someone, not you, lumped it in with Steiner schools (founded by a 'scientific racist' incidentally) and other Modern Parents type nonsense.

 

[mrs quoad]

Someone, not you, lumped it in with Steiner schools (founded by a 'scientific racist' incidentally) and other Modern Parents type nonsense.

No, pretty sure that was me

It was a list of our social circles, including the militant fringe of assorted breastfeeding tubthumper groups. The militant fringe is definitely both quite militant, and quite fringe. It is not, however, representative of all breastfeeders. If it was, it wouldn't be a fringe.

 

[Tom A]

The circles I move in probably expose me to far more unreasonable vegans than the average punter, so I may be a bit biased as to how many militant vegans there are.

Whereas I tend to proactively avoid circles that would expose me to "unreasonable vegans"

Mrs Frank is a vegan, without being a dick about it. Most vegans are able to pull off the same trick with minimal effort. But the troublesome evangelists do exist and IME ordinary vegans get as sick of them as I do.

That's also my experience among my vegan friends.

There are lots of militant vegans with very dodgy human-based politics, and lots more who will tolerate endless sexism, racism, homophobia and (insert shit behaviour here) from people as long as they turn up to meetings and help out on the stall of a Saturday afternoon.

Disablism is a particularly sore issue, particularly when it comes to saying "there's no such thing as a fat vegan" (one can still have an unhealthy diet without any animal products involved, and excessive weight can be caused by both physical and mental health issues), and refusal to acknowledge that food intolerances can make veganism difficult for some. Then there's the elitism that ignores the socioeconomic factors behind a person's dietary choices.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Militant breastfeeders eh? Struggling to think how that would work.

 

[ddraig]

Whereas I tend to proactively avoid circles that would expose me to "unreasonable vegans"


That's also my experience among my vegan friends.


Disablism is a particularly sore issue, particularly when it comes to saying "there's no such thing as a fat vegan" (one can still have an unhealthy diet without any animal products involved, and excessive weight can be caused by both physical and mental health issues), and refusal to acknowledge that food intolerances can make veganism difficult for some. Then there's the elitism that ignores the socioeconomic factors behind a person's dietary choices.

What Fat Vegans Eat

 

[SpookyFrank]

Then there's the elitism that ignores the socioeconomic factors behind a person's dietary choices.

Anyone who was raised veggie/vegan and goes on about how easy it is to turn veggie/vegan can fucking do one. For a very large number of people the association of 'meat' with 'food' and consequently with home, family, safety and other powerful psychological forces begins before self-awareness or conscious decision making have developed. If you've never tried to tackle that level of conditioning, don't tell someone else they can do it as easy as falling off a log.