Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?
- Thread starter Watermelon Man
- Start date
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Raised and then killed for their plate. Mrs Quoad pointed this out earlier in the thread, that you seem fixated on only the end point of meat farming. These particular animals exist because we're going to kill them. I'm concerned with how we treat them while they are alive, but I have no problem with the idea of bringing animals into existence in order to put their bodies on my plate. You seemingly can't process that idea.
Wookey
Muppet is not a slur
If everyone ate vegan for three days a week, that would be the equivalent of half the population going vegan. A much more realistic goal than trying to get half the population to go vegan.
But the absolutist positioning of some vegans, for whom this is a black and white ethical issue, I believe prevents many people from exploring the possibilities of a partial transition to veganism - a failure which is ultimately resulting in more animal death rather than less.
Meat production and consumption on a global scale has gone through the roof in the last 40 years and continues to rise. There is no revolution happening towards veganism on a global scale, if anything the direct opposite.
The Welsh bloke off Googlebox recently provided a perfect example of how the effects of an 'all or nothing' attitude of some extremist vegans can actually prevent behaviour change... He was watching a show about veggie food, and he said: "I could do that, go veggie, that's an idea!"
Then he says... "Oh, but I do love beef stew. Oh well scrap that then, never going to work..."
And so the idea of perhaps eschewing meat for half the week just disappeared. Perhaps the single most important act he could have done for his health and that of the planet was thrown away, because he felt he couldn't switch partially - it had to be completely or wasn't worth it, wasn't possible, wasn't kosher.
It's the extreme positioning of meat vs veganism that I think contributes to the entrenched habits that see us eat meat morning, noon and night, far too much, too often and too cheap. By welcoming each and every instance of non-meat consumption as a victory and a step in the right direction, we could begin to have an impact.
By guilt-tripping people, using revulsion tactics and taking the moral high-ground, some (no doubt well-meaning) vegans are harming their own cause by alienating the very people they COULD be gently and gradually winning over.
I ate meat once this week, and it was a wild Highland venison steak that was shot on a hillside one morning. I find that falls comfortably within my own ethical parameters, and means I ate veggie for 95% of the week... Clearly not perfect, or indeed anywhere near enough for some vegan activists, but infinitely less damaging than a typical UK meat-eaters diet. It's called compromise, and is a useful tool for social change.
Telling someone what to put in their own mouth to keep themselves alive is fraught with difficulties and bound to fail in most instances. If these kinds of vegans understood humans as well as they profess to understand the other animals, they would get further in their quest, imo, and we would all be better off for it.
But the absolutist positioning of some vegans, for whom this is a black and white ethical issue, I believe prevents many people from exploring the possibilities of a partial transition to veganism - a failure which is ultimately resulting in more animal death rather than less.
Meat production and consumption on a global scale has gone through the roof in the last 40 years and continues to rise. There is no revolution happening towards veganism on a global scale, if anything the direct opposite.
The Welsh bloke off Googlebox recently provided a perfect example of how the effects of an 'all or nothing' attitude of some extremist vegans can actually prevent behaviour change... He was watching a show about veggie food, and he said: "I could do that, go veggie, that's an idea!"
Then he says... "Oh, but I do love beef stew. Oh well scrap that then, never going to work..."
And so the idea of perhaps eschewing meat for half the week just disappeared. Perhaps the single most important act he could have done for his health and that of the planet was thrown away, because he felt he couldn't switch partially - it had to be completely or wasn't worth it, wasn't possible, wasn't kosher.
It's the extreme positioning of meat vs veganism that I think contributes to the entrenched habits that see us eat meat morning, noon and night, far too much, too often and too cheap. By welcoming each and every instance of non-meat consumption as a victory and a step in the right direction, we could begin to have an impact.
By guilt-tripping people, using revulsion tactics and taking the moral high-ground, some (no doubt well-meaning) vegans are harming their own cause by alienating the very people they COULD be gently and gradually winning over.
I ate meat once this week, and it was a wild Highland venison steak that was shot on a hillside one morning. I find that falls comfortably within my own ethical parameters, and means I ate veggie for 95% of the week... Clearly not perfect, or indeed anywhere near enough for some vegan activists, but infinitely less damaging than a typical UK meat-eaters diet. It's called compromise, and is a useful tool for social change.
Telling someone what to put in their own mouth to keep themselves alive is fraught with difficulties and bound to fail in most instances. If these kinds of vegans understood humans as well as they profess to understand the other animals, they would get further in their quest, imo, and we would all be better off for it.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
wookey speaks!! end of discussion/thread
who here has told you what to put in your own mouth??
do what you like/want/desire/makes you feel comfortable/tickles your tastebuds
you're the one trying to dictate how vegans should do things here, not the other way round
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
But if you eat any amount of meat or drink any amount of milk you're a heartless scumbag worthy of scorn and derision.
Nobody's come out and said it like that but that's the tone of many posts on this thread, and I for one have heard it said quite explicitly in real life. Shit, I've probably said it myself once or twice in my more impulsive days.
Nobody's come out and said it like that but that's the tone of many posts on this thread, and I for one have heard it said quite explicitly in real life. Shit, I've probably said it myself once or twice in my more impulsive days.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Why are you always so unpleasant to people with different views to you on these threads? His post was completely reasonable, considered and polite.wookey speaks!! end of discussion/thread
who here has told you what to put in your own mouth??
do what you like/want/desire/makes you feel comfortable/tickles your tastebuds
you're the one trying to dictate how vegans should do things here, not the other way round
You really are the ultimate angry flower-scoffer.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
ah! the "a vegan once said so all vegans are..." argument
i'll ask again, who on this thread has told wookey what to put in his mouth?
this is a part of fragile carnist mentality is i think (seeing an attack where there isn't one)
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
awww, what was unpleasant about what i posted?
his post was not reasonable, he and you think it's considered
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Not made by me. I'm relating personal experience that I know for a fact isn't only my experience. I'm not going so far as to universalise it, but I am acknowledging that it's a widely-shared experience.
And so is having the piss ripped for being a vegan but hey, at least vegans get the moral high ground eh?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Lol
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Same with this one!
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
quite succinct i thought, what is offensive about it? why not start a post that way
he was bestowing judgement so it was a response to that
is this part of the "just be nicer about it and you'll maybe convince more people" shite argument?
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
it's true tho, the claim was wrong and an extrapolation of something else that once happenedSame with this one!
gromit school of debate style
PaoloSanchez
Well-Known Member
Different things work for different people. There are also some fundamental principles which many people hold an absolutist position on, examples I can think of off the top of my head are rape and slavery. How about a rape free Wednesday as a compromise to appease those "extremists" that believe that all rape is wrong?
There are certain things that evolved and civilised people accept as just plain wrong. Vegans believe that unnecessary killing of animals falls into the "plain wrong" category. The current majority of the world may take some time before they catch up and come to their senses.
It depends on how you spin the numbers. On a global scale the human population is steadily increasing and as the majority of the world isn't vegan of course the numbers eating meat will also increase, I suspect that much of that increase is driven by the "Americanisation" of China and India's taste buds. Meanwhile in the west, which some would argue are "ahead of the curve" there has undoubtably been a significant momentum shift towards veganism.
Cool story bro', however I'm not sure what alleged "extremism" had to do with that Welsh blokes momentary thought about "going veggie". Were there vegan terrorists standing outside his door wielding placards? Probably not. Meat eaters love to find a way of blaming vegans for their own reluctance to stop eating meat. Might be better to just be honest and admit that you can't be that bothered to change...and imo that's at the heart of the issue here. People are very resistant to change especially if it means letting go of well established habits. Old habits die hard. Blaming "extremist vegans" is a bit of a buck passing cop out.
I can only speak for myself, and I make no apology for believing that killing animals unnecessarily is wrong. The irony being that those who are in favour of, or at least condoning, the killing of animals unnecessarily are somehow portraying themselves as the victims, and the vegans who are against slaughter are somehow seen as the "extremists", lol. Go figure.
Meat eaters that don't believe that there's anything wrong with what they're doing won't feel guilty when confronted with the reality of their food choices. Those that do feel guilty should perhaps ask themselves why. Either way, other peoples feelings of guilt is not a good enough reason for activists and commentators to stop speaking out and highlighting the injustices that are at the foundation of the meat, dairy, egg and fish industries.
Yeah, that's where vegans have been going wrong. They need to just keep their mouths shut and keep their principles to themselves.
Well in spite of the fraught difficulties that come with being outnumbered by several orders of magnitude, the vegan message is doing a Leicester City 2016/2017 and punching above it's weight. The awareness and interest is growing steadily and hopefully will reach critical mass in my lifetime and become the new normal.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
No. You''ll not convince anyone because your arguments are shit. Nothing to do with the way you make them really. My comment was based on your "debating" style and really just taking the piss out of you a bit. Are you really a veg-head? I think you've lapsed and are secretly firing down burgers and bacon sarnies. That's why you're like this. Guilt!is this part of the "just be nicer about it and you'll maybe convince more people" shite argument?
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
oh dear oh dear oh dear
again, i'm not trying to convince anyone
nice try there spy!
funny that you're starting to accept the premise of carnist guilt tho
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Yep, the guilt's killing me! The week before last I shot 7 pheasants and 14 partridge. Dunno how I'm going to live with myself. Break out the sackcloth and ashes.oh dear oh dear oh dear
again, i'm not trying to convince anyone
nice try there spy!
funny that you're starting to accept the premise of carnist guilt tho
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ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
ah the macho meat head shooter toff wannabe is back! all is well
PaoloSanchez
Well-Known Member
Only peace on our table
We just feeling quite grateful
Plate full of vegetables
No waste no hate no pain at all
We connect with the empathy
More plants, more energy
And yes we got protein, see through the smokescreen
Vegan is exactly what we're meant to be
Animals are not here to be exploited
We should think about our choices
They say we always preach but we only want to teach
And we have to speak up for the voiceless
They trust us, we betray them
How would you like a taste
Of a lifetime spent in cages
Then an ending filled with pain
So can't we change, yeah can we not change
To only eat fruit & veg & grains
You don't really need to eat that meat
Just know that the truth would set you free
Cause we can't breathe when there's no trees
When there's no fish left in the seas
Don't pay for destruction, fight the corruption
Of greedy industries of disease
Compassion to action, we just make that happen
Meat, eggs and dairy declined, we keep our values aligned
Inspired by these vegans who choose love every single time that they're eating
If you hold the truth you can never be defeated
If you hold the truth you can never be defeated
James Aspey: "We need to put ourselves in the animals position, speak up for animals the way you would want to be spoken for if it was you in their situation."
No silence this year activism on the rise
We hear these animals cry
Look into their eyes and you might think twice
Look into your heart and you might ask why?
No single animal deserves any suffering, that's not right
And all these screens they poison our minds with conditioning, it's all lies
No time now for excuses
Go vegan and feel lucid, this year
We bring about revolution, this year
Have to fight the pollution, this year
Everybody to be thriving
Not killing the environment
Because there's only one planet and it has to be saved
And that starts on your plate
James Aspey: "Because this is not some mundane diet choice. This is the difference between enslavement and freedom, between torture and peace, between death and life."
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It's not macho either really. Even you could do it with a bit of practice
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
wannabe toff not actual toff!Toff
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
the numbers and your prowess sire not the actIt's not macho either really. Even you could do it with a bit of practice
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Toff wannabe too. I'm going to use them all interchangeably.At least you've got a choice now: Macho meat-head or Fragile Carnist. It's like the beginnings of some sort of spectrum
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Ahh, I see. Some of them shot back too. Proper hard I am. <flexes muscles>
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