Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[PaoloSanchez]

Contents of "Anti-Vegan arguments are weak"

The nature of morality – 04:13

Morality doesn't exist – 5:05
Morality is subjective – 6:40
Religion
Self interest
Arbitrary lines
Eat or be eaten
Consistency
Law​

The necessity of exploitation - 08:05

Health – 08:27

Lack nutrients – 08:48
Muscle building – 09:25
Blood type diet – 09:53
My body couldn’t sustain itself on a vegan diet – 10:30

Doctor said so
Veganism made me sick
IBS​

Isolated tribes need to eat animals – 11:40
Stranded on an island – 12:00
Population control – 12:17
Job loss – 12:52
Farmed animal apocalypse – 13:29
Farmed animal extinction – 14:05
Environment – 14:34

Almonds – 15:10
Grass fed cows – 15:42
Monocropping – 16:28
Palm oil – 16:55
Amazon deforestation for soy – 17:32​

Not manly – 18:02
Animal testing – 18:11
Culture – 19:41
Historic necessity – 20:07

Brain development – 20:32
Formation of modern civilization – 20:54​

The difficulty of change – 21:22

Shitty food – 21:37
Low variety – 21:49

Restaurants
Shopping​

Reading Labels – 22:41
Habit – 22:50

Used to cooking with dead bodies
Used to the flavour of dead bodies​

Negative social pressure – 23:22

Being made fun of – 23:31
Confrontation – 23:37
Bugging waiters, hosts, family, etc – 23:48​

Expense – 24:09​

The right to personal choice – 24:26

Respect my choice – 25:05
Don’t push your values – 25:18
I'm on my own personal journey – 25:59
I don’t have to defend my diet – 26:21​

The intrinsic good of nature – 27:22

It’s natural – 27:50
Adaptations – 28:03

Enzymes – 28:15
Canines – 28:27​

Circle of life – 28:47
Food chain – 29:01
We've always eaten other animals – 29:13
Other animals eat each other – 29:21
Humans are omnivores – 29:31
Apex predator – 29:58​

The ethically relevant differences/similarities between life forms – 30:07

Intelligence – 30:45
Sentience – 31:19

Animal non-sentience – 31:44
Plant sentience – 33:07​

Concept formation – 34:47

Self – 35:28
Past/future – 36:15
Desire to live – 37:03​

Pain – 37:40
Expression of will – 37:53
Soul – 38:14
Morphology – 38:23​

The invalidity of hypocritical criticism – 39:17

You own something that caused/causes suffering – 42:09

Electronics – 42:20
Leather – 42:51
House – 43:32
Pet – 43:50​

You need to eat meat – 44:47
Vegans kill more animals – 45:31
You work somewhere non-vegan – 46:46
You aren’t 100% moral – 47:07​

The acceptance of welfarism – 47:52

Ethical slaughter – 48:46
Spiritual slaughter – 49:05
Hunting – 49:23
Vegetarianism – 49:46
Reducitarianism – 50:39
Systemic change – 50:57​

The distastefulness of vegans – 51:28

Rude – 52:22
Superior/condescending/pretentious – 53:07
Making me feel bad – 53:17
You think all non-vegans are terrible people – 53:26
Close minded – 53:35​

The futility of veganism – 54:52

What difference can I make? – 55:00
The world won’t go vegan – 55:16
Animals are going to die either way – 55:30
Animals are bred to die – 56:47
This is the way it is – 56:50​

The moral counterbalances for exploitation – 57:01

The animals like it – 57:19
It’s a fair trade – 57:42
Better than dying a harsh death – 57:56
It’s not me doing the killing – 58:13
Greater purpose – 58:21
Pleasure – 58:28
I don’t eat much meat – 58:37
I do other good things – 58:53
The animal wouldn't be nice to you – 59:37​

The semantic and technicalities of veganism – 59:56

What is the precise scope of veganism – 1:00:40
Is being fully vegan possible – 1:01:04
You can’t “murder” an animal – 1:01:21
How do we define wellbeing – 1:02:11
Is there a moral problem with eating roadkill – 1:02:27​

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Vegan spam. Mycoprotein no doubt.

 

[ddraig]

*Caveat for the fragile carnists*
I don't agree with everything posted by ps
*Caveat for the fragile carnists*

Do people know what this is, what it's used for and think it's right??

 

[mojo pixy]

Flesh eaters usually try to defend their violent ways with a mile-high wall of pseudo logic. I’m sure you’ve seen it deployed:-

• Plants are sentient
• Vegans are condescending
• It’s natural
• I need animal products to be healthy
• Live and let live
• Wild animals don’t care about you why should you care about them
• Etc

What we’re looking at here is a dense cluster of pathetically weak argumentation driven by fear of change and indoctrinated delusion. These arguments are usually deployed in rapid fire one after another ad nauseum until the vegan grows tired and gives up. Well I've taken the time to write down as many of these arguments as I can think of, split them into categories based on common flaws, and now I'm going to eviscerate them one by one for your pleasure, demonstrating as the title of the video says that anti-vegan arguments are weak.

...so learn the correct response and never struggle for that gotcha moment!

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Night night

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Contents of "Anti-Vegan arguments are weak"

The nature of morality – 04:13

Morality doesn't exist – 5:05
Morality is subjective – 6:40
Religion
Self interest
Arbitrary lines
Eat or be eaten
Consistency
Law​

The necessity of exploitation - 08:05

Health – 08:27

Lack nutrients – 08:48
Muscle building – 09:25
Blood type diet – 09:53
My body couldn’t sustain itself on a vegan diet – 10:30

Doctor said so
Veganism made me sick
IBS​

Isolated tribes need to eat animals – 11:40
Stranded on an island – 12:00
Population control – 12:17
Job loss – 12:52
Farmed animal apocalypse – 13:29
Farmed animal extinction – 14:05
Environment – 14:34

Almonds – 15:10
Grass fed cows – 15:42
Monocropping – 16:28
Palm oil – 16:55
Amazon deforestation for soy – 17:32​

Not manly – 18:02
Animal testing – 18:11
Culture – 19:41
Historic necessity – 20:07

Brain development – 20:32
Formation of modern civilization – 20:54​

The difficulty of change – 21:22

Shitty food – 21:37
Low variety – 21:49

Restaurants
Shopping​

Reading Labels – 22:41
Habit – 22:50

Used to cooking with dead bodies
Used to the flavour of dead bodies​

Negative social pressure – 23:22

Being made fun of – 23:31
Confrontation – 23:37
Bugging waiters, hosts, family, etc – 23:48​

Expense – 24:09​

The right to personal choice – 24:26

Respect my choice – 25:05
Don’t push your values – 25:18
I'm on my own personal journey – 25:59
I don’t have to defend my diet – 26:21​

The intrinsic good of nature – 27:22

It’s natural – 27:50
Adaptations – 28:03

Enzymes – 28:15
Canines – 28:27​

Circle of life – 28:47
Food chain – 29:01
We've always eaten other animals – 29:13
Other animals eat each other – 29:21
Humans are omnivores – 29:31
Apex predator – 29:58​

The ethically relevant differences/similarities between life forms – 30:07

Intelligence – 30:45
Sentience – 31:19

Animal non-sentience – 31:44
Plant sentience – 33:07​

Concept formation – 34:47

Self – 35:28
Past/future – 36:15
Desire to live – 37:03​

Pain – 37:40
Expression of will – 37:53
Soul – 38:14
Morphology – 38:23​

The invalidity of hypocritical criticism – 39:17

You own something that caused/causes suffering – 42:09

Electronics – 42:20
Leather – 42:51
House – 43:32
Pet – 43:50​

You need to eat meat – 44:47
Vegans kill more animals – 45:31
You work somewhere non-vegan – 46:46
You aren’t 100% moral – 47:07​

The acceptance of welfarism – 47:52

Ethical slaughter – 48:46
Spiritual slaughter – 49:05
Hunting – 49:23
Vegetarianism – 49:46
Reducitarianism – 50:39
Systemic change – 50:57​

The distastefulness of vegans – 51:28

Rude – 52:22
Superior/condescending/pretentious – 53:07
Making me feel bad – 53:17
You think all non-vegans are terrible people – 53:26
Close minded – 53:35​

The futility of veganism – 54:52

What difference can I make? – 55:00
The world won’t go vegan – 55:16
Animals are going to die either way – 55:30
Animals are bred to die – 56:47
This is the way it is – 56:50​

The moral counterbalances for exploitation – 57:01

The animals like it – 57:19
It’s a fair trade – 57:42
Better than dying a harsh death – 57:56
It’s not me doing the killing – 58:13
Greater purpose – 58:21
Pleasure – 58:28
I don’t eat much meat – 58:37
I do other good things – 58:53
The animal wouldn't be nice to you – 59:37​

The semantic and technicalities of veganism – 59:56

What is the precise scope of veganism – 1:00:40
Is being fully vegan possible – 1:01:04
You can’t “murder” an animal – 1:01:21
How do we define wellbeing – 1:02:11
Is there a moral problem with eating roadkill – 1:02:27​

Fuck me.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

*Caveat for the fragile carnists*
I don't agree with everything posted by ps
*Caveat for the fragile carnists*

Do people know what this is, what it's used for and think it's right??

Well I looked it up, so I do know what it is now. It's a weaner ring.

This page has some details on their usage written by a dairy farmer. She may not be entirely unbiased, but I don't know enough to say.

 

[ddraig]

It's to stop calves having milk from their mothers so humans can have it

So when they try it hurts the mother and it shuns their calf
Guess that's fine with you and others

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's to stop calves having milk from their mothers so humans can have it

Not according to the page I linked to, which claims that this is not common practice, and it's specifically not to stop calves from nursing with their mothers. They've already been taken away from their mothers by that point.

See you're joining in with the passive-aggressive assumptions of ps and others. I've already linked earlier in the thread to a farm that I considered to be just about best practice. That farm allowed mothers to nurse calves for several months. And yes, I am fully aware that most farms do not do that.

 

[ddraig]

Nope I'm not joining in with whatever "passive aggressive assumptions" you think are being made
There you go again with your sneering summations

It is increasingly used so that calves can't have their mother's milk

Anyway, pointless trying with you as proved over and over

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Nope I'm not joining in with whatever "passive aggressive assumptions" you think are being made
It is increasingly used so that calves can't have their mother's milk

Anyway, pointless trying with you as proved over and over

Increasingly used. Can you give a link? I don't know about many of the details of dairy farming. Don't claim to. But don't try to claim you're the one being all reasonable here with your bullshit about ' fragile carnists' and 'guess that's fine with you' assumptions. Own your fucking crap at least.

I will repeat for the hard of reading.

I HAVE ALREADY POSTED ABOUT WAYS FOR DAIRY FARMING TO BE IMPROVED. I DO NOT THINK CURRENT MAINSTREAM FARMING PRACTICES ARE OK.

Did you read my link, btw? Is she wrong? If so, can you show the evidence for it?

 

[Wookey]

It's to stop calves having milk from their mothers so humans can have it

So when they try it hurts the mother and it shuns their calf
Guess that's fine with you and others

Calves don't really meet their mothers. It's not a family circle, it's a factory.

It's to prevent cow on cow or calf on calf udder chewing, to avoid mastitis and scarring that eventually damage milk production. Best to be accurate if you're going to discuss dairy husbandry, otherwise you can be accused of using cheap emotional ploys to further your argument, when the bare facts should be quite enough.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Contents of "Anti-Vegan arguments are weak"

The nature of morality – 04:13

Morality doesn't exist – 5:05
Morality is subjective – 6:40
Religion
Self interest
Arbitrary lines
Eat or be eaten
Consistency
Law​

The necessity of exploitation - 08:05

Health – 08:27

Lack nutrients – 08:48
Muscle building – 09:25
Blood type diet – 09:53
My body couldn’t sustain itself on a vegan diet – 10:30

Doctor said so
Veganism made me sick
IBS​

Isolated tribes need to eat animals – 11:40
Stranded on an island – 12:00
Population control – 12:17
Job loss – 12:52
Farmed animal apocalypse – 13:29
Farmed animal extinction – 14:05
Environment – 14:34

Almonds – 15:10
Grass fed cows – 15:42
Monocropping – 16:28
Palm oil – 16:55
Amazon deforestation for soy – 17:32​

Not manly – 18:02
Animal testing – 18:11
Culture – 19:41
Historic necessity – 20:07

Brain development – 20:32
Formation of modern civilization – 20:54​

The difficulty of change – 21:22

Shitty food – 21:37
Low variety – 21:49

Restaurants
Shopping​

Reading Labels – 22:41
Habit – 22:50

Used to cooking with dead bodies
Used to the flavour of dead bodies​

Negative social pressure – 23:22

Being made fun of – 23:31
Confrontation – 23:37
Bugging waiters, hosts, family, etc – 23:48​

Expense – 24:09​

The right to personal choice – 24:26

Respect my choice – 25:05
Don’t push your values – 25:18
I'm on my own personal journey – 25:59
I don’t have to defend my diet – 26:21​

The intrinsic good of nature – 27:22

It’s natural – 27:50
Adaptations – 28:03

Enzymes – 28:15
Canines – 28:27​

Circle of life – 28:47
Food chain – 29:01
We've always eaten other animals – 29:13
Other animals eat each other – 29:21
Humans are omnivores – 29:31
Apex predator – 29:58​

The ethically relevant differences/similarities between life forms – 30:07

Intelligence – 30:45
Sentience – 31:19

Animal non-sentience – 31:44
Plant sentience – 33:07​

Concept formation – 34:47

Self – 35:28
Past/future – 36:15
Desire to live – 37:03​

Pain – 37:40
Expression of will – 37:53
Soul – 38:14
Morphology – 38:23​

The invalidity of hypocritical criticism – 39:17

You own something that caused/causes suffering – 42:09

Electronics – 42:20
Leather – 42:51
House – 43:32
Pet – 43:50​

You need to eat meat – 44:47
Vegans kill more animals – 45:31
You work somewhere non-vegan – 46:46
You aren’t 100% moral – 47:07​

The acceptance of welfarism – 47:52

Ethical slaughter – 48:46
Spiritual slaughter – 49:05
Hunting – 49:23
Vegetarianism – 49:46
Reducitarianism – 50:39
Systemic change – 50:57​

The distastefulness of vegans – 51:28

Rude – 52:22
Superior/condescending/pretentious – 53:07
Making me feel bad – 53:17
You think all non-vegans are terrible people – 53:26
Close minded – 53:35​

The futility of veganism – 54:52

What difference can I make? – 55:00
The world won’t go vegan – 55:16
Animals are going to die either way – 55:30
Animals are bred to die – 56:47
This is the way it is – 56:50​

The moral counterbalances for exploitation – 57:01

The animals like it – 57:19
It’s a fair trade – 57:42
Better than dying a harsh death – 57:56
It’s not me doing the killing – 58:13
Greater purpose – 58:21
Pleasure – 58:28
I don’t eat much meat – 58:37
I do other good things – 58:53
The animal wouldn't be nice to you – 59:37​

The semantic and technicalities of veganism – 59:56

What is the precise scope of veganism – 1:00:40
Is being fully vegan possible – 1:01:04
You can’t “murder” an animal – 1:01:21
How do we define wellbeing – 1:02:11
Is there a moral problem with eating roadkill – 1:02:27​

And you expect this sort of thing to go down well do you?

 

[mojo pixy]

No, he doesn't; he expects to feel superior, and for you to feel terrible. Maybe you'll have a think and then become vegan, which would make him the daddy because he made you do something. But if you don't he'll just go on feeling superior to you like he does now.

Win/win

 

[SpookyFrank]

No, he doesn't; he expects to feel superior, and for you to feel terrible. Maybe you'll have a think and then become vegan, which would make him the daddy because he made you do something. But if you don't he'll just go on feeling superior to you like he does now.

Win/win

Sounds like a great strategy.

I bet he has load of friends too. Loads of friends.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

It is increasingly used so that calves can't have their mother's milk

You have a source for his?

Anyway, pointless trying with you as proved over and over

Apparently not.

 

[mojo pixy]

Sounds like a great strategy

Not all vegans behave like that, sure. I know vegans who don't behave like that but if you push them on the matter they admit to still feeling like that. Others just go about their day and don't pay too much mind to what other people eat. Hard to say how much of a minority these are though.

 

[veganomics]

Intro to "anti-vegan arguments are weak" video...

We live in a world where speciesism and animal exploitation are deeply embedded. Animal use was part of our society long before complex moral structures arose. Whole cultures and civilisations without serious debate on the moral legitimacy of animal use. As human society grew in size and complexity, so did the institution of animal exploitation. Now after millennia of this growth we find animals in just about everything, from blood adhesive in plywood, to animal fat in gummy candy, their skins wrap our chairs, their desiccated bones filter our sugar, and if you’re in the right part of the world, their bile might be in your toothpaste. Streets are plastered with ads telling you to ingest slabs of their muscles, TV families sit down to eat their carcasses, their body parts are a common sight at grocery stores and it’s very likely that your entire lineage is an unbroken chain of animal eaters.

This is a climate of intense indoctrination. The difficulty of seeing through this veil of normalcy to the intrinsic wrong of animal exploitation is analogous to the difficulty that our predecessors faced in seeing through the veil of normalcy surrounding slavery. The sheer degree of cognitive dissonance caused by thinking about animals and morality at the same time is too much for many people, so they find ways to avoid bringing veganism into focus. This age-old psychopathic indoctrination is the reason why someone as smart as Dawkins can still have severely impaired perception of reality when it comes to animals. Worst of all these people can remain ignorant and persist in moral psychosis because at present there is a strong taboo around criticizing animal use.

Well I’m sure at this point you’ve inferred my view. I see this view as even more absurd than the view around criticizing religion and in dire need of shattering. This takes us to the core of the video. Flesh eaters usually try to defend their violent ways with a mile-high wall of pseudo logic. I’m sure you’ve seen it deployed:-

• Plants are sentient
• Vegans are condescending
• It’s natural
• I need animal products to be healthy
• Live and let live
• Wild animals don’t care about you why should you care about them
• Etc

What we’re looking at here is a dense cluster of pathetically weak argumentation driven by fear of change and indoctrinated delusion. These arguments are usually deployed in rapid fire one after another ad nauseum until the vegan grows tired and gives up. Well I've taken the time to write down as many of these arguments as I can think of, split them into categories based on common flaws, and now I'm going to eviscerate them one by one for your pleasure, demonstrating as the title of the video says that anti-vegan arguments are weak.

Watched that last night. I found him to be a bit on the brusque side, but the content was excellent and covered nearly all of the usual objections and excuses.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No, he doesn't; he expects to feel superior, and for you to feel terrible. Maybe you'll have a think and then become vegan, which would make him the daddy because he made you do something. But if you don't he'll just go on feeling superior to you like he does now.

Win/win

The absurd thing is that he has people here in front of him making arguments. Why produce lists of imagined arguments when he can just dismantle what is in front of him? Same goes for ddraig with his fragile carnist bollocks. Both of them prefer to imagine what it is that we really think and rail against that rather than address what we're actually saying.

I've attempted to tackle the strongest arguments against eating meat head-on. Jeff Robinson is the only poster from the 'other side' who has done likewise. And nobody here is seriously 'anti-vegan'.

 

[Casual Observer]

Vegan mushroom and chickpea pate. Only takes 5 minutes to make. Think I came up with this myself so you won't find it on the internet.

Slice and fry 10 regular sized mushrooms then put them in a blender. Drain a tin of chickpeas, rinse them and then put them to the blender. Add 15 black olives to the blender and add a generous sprinkle of your favourite spices. Blend for one minute and there's your mushroom and chickpea pate. Decant the pate to a dish and leave in the fridge for an hour to help it solidify.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Calves don't really meet their mothers. It's not a family circle, it's a factory.

It's to prevent cow on cow or calf on calf udder chewing, to avoid mastitis and scarring that eventually damage milk production. Best to be accurate if you're going to discuss dairy husbandry, otherwise you can be accused of using cheap emotional ploys to further your argument, when the bare facts should be quite enough.

I suspect this udder chewing arises chiefly because calves are separated from their mothers before weaning. At best these nose rings are a byproduct of an inherently cruel industry based on mother-offspring separation. When dairy farmers present them as a necessary corrective to the violence and abuse they have already inflicted on "their" "cattle" its as bankrupt as when pig farmers justify sow stalls to protect piglets being crushed by their mothers - when the only reason the piglets are at risk of being crushed in the first place is because the farmers have packed them so tightly into sheds they have no freedom of movement!

In any event, a variant of the nose ring, the spiked weaning nose plate, is used for precisely the reasons ddraig identified. See the video embedded in this article in which a dairy farmer explains how these horrific devices work:

The Spiked Nose Ring: A Symbol for All Dairy Cruelty

 

[veganomics]

Of course, folks who don't want to see anything wrong with exploiting animals, because they like the taste, will want to hang on to the current status quo of cows being "lesser" beings which means that they don't have to feel any remorse or guilt towards when confronted with the poor treatment of these innocent creatures. This is not a million miles away from the views that slave owners had of their "property" who were also seen lesser beings who were treated badly. They even had science to back up their belief that black people weren't really properly human.

View attachment 119468
In hindsight and with our more evolved morals many of us look back at that time with horror and disgust. Those of us that believe that the way we currently treat cattle and other animals is horrible and disgusting look forward to a future when the majority think the same of today's behaviour.

I'm not sure if this has already been posted in this thread but Richard Dawkins made the same point in his Big Think video, and I agree with him.



As you well know, it's also one of the main themes in Simon Amstel's "Carnage".

 

[Wookey]

Vegan mushroom and chickpea pate. Only takes 5 minutes to make. Think I came up with this myself so you won't find it on the internet.

Slice and fry 10 regular sized mushrooms then put them in a blender. Drain a tin of chickpeas, rinse them and then put them to the blender. Add 15 black olives to the blender and add a generous sprinkle of your favourite spices. Blend for one minute and there's your mushroom and chickpea pate. Decant the pate to a dish and leave in the fridge for an hour to help it solidify.

Totally having a go of that! Ta chef!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I suspect this udder chewing arises chiefly because calves are separated from their mothers before weaning. At best these nose rings are a byproduct of an inherently cruel industry based on mother-offspring separation.

I'm sure it does. But that just reinforces Wookey's point about the importance of accuracy. Hyperbole is scarcely necessary when discussing industrialised farming processes - the truth is bad enough.

 

[Casual Observer]

Totally having a go of that! Ta chef!

You're welcome, Wookey. Adding some soy sauce during the mushroom frying stage wouldn't go amiss either.

 

[sleaterkinney]

It's to stop calves having milk from their mothers so humans can have it

So when they try it hurts the mother and it shuns their calf
Guess that's fine with you and others

I've never actually seen them used. Ever. And that calf would have been weaned a long time ago, so maybe it's to stop them getting younger animal's milk.

 

[Wookey]

You're welcome, Wookey. Adding some soy sauce during the mushroom frying stage wouldn't go amiss either.

And what would you fry the mushies in? Just a wee bit of olive oil?

 

[Wookey]

I think if angry vegans just shared more recipes they'd have a bigger impact than telling the world off. IMHO.

 

[Casual Observer]

And what would you fry the mushies in? Just a wee bit of olive oil?

Whatever oil you have to hand really. Olive oil is fine. I have to confess, I did experiment with a few of the poncier oils a few years back (sesame oil etc.) and found they didn't make much of a difference. That was for cooking generally, rather than pate making or mushroom frying.