Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[starfish2000]

I’m not vegan, or even vegetarian. But I’m aware I eat too much processed food. I work shifts too.

I make this lentil ragu up with artichokes, garlic, onions, mushrooms & peppers. I have a big bowl of it to last 3 days.

So day 1 I have pasta, day 2 I have it with a mashed potato & cheese topping like a Shepard’s pie. Day 3 I have it with 3 Gourmet style sausages.

I’m not really influenced by others. I eat what I feel like.

 

[gentlegreen]

 

[PaoloSanchez]

These angry vegans clearly haven't put me off because I've recently gone vegan. I've been vegan for atleast a couple of months now and it was easier than I thought to change my diet. I thought I would miss my dairy, such as my butter on toast in the morning, and my dairy milk- but I really didn't, it took abit of time though to totally change but I wouldn't call it 'tough' or 'hard'. This, ofcourse, has been made easier by the improvement of vegan food, even vegan cheese, and there are a whole variety of decent alternatives to dairy now, and meat aswell.

You've hit the nail on the head with one of the more common myths that it is hard to go vegan. Even without the processed vegan alternatives to meat and dairy, there's an abundance of fruit, veg, grains, nuts, seeds, herbs and spices that are available. I think it's the societal norms that makes it a lot easier and a lot less hassle to just eat anything going so as not to be seen as an oddball fussy eater and to fit in with everyone else especially at social functions. (btw, congrats on going vegan, hope you are able to stay the course)

As for this discussion in the vegan 'movement' you are referring to, I can't be in either category because I do believe that if you, for example, drink non-vegan beer etc then you are not vegan. However, being angry and tetchy and over emotional with people is just going to backfire and put people off and I firmly believe that using logical arguments (rather than emotional ones) is best. That said I still respect passion, but you can be passionate but logical.

Some people do get a bit hung up and nit picky on the fine details regarding what is and isn't vegan. I try to do my best to make purchasing decisions that minimise the amount of harm caused to both human and animal as is practicable. It is impossible to live 100% completely harm free in a non vegan world. Unfortunately you will always find somebody who will try to pick holes in your choices with silly arguments like, "you eat bread, the flour from that bread might have bits of insects in it, therefore you can't call yourself a vegan". (Is being fully vegan possible – 1:01:04)

It's probably best to ignore the naysayers and haters and do whatever you're comfortable with.

I actually knew a vegan from years ago who was what I would describe as very dogmatic and she really did put me off of veganism at the time, at the time I was vegetarian. Now, I'm with people who have convinced me of the logical arguments and with the right sort of encouragement I've seen sense and made the change and would certainly say I feel healthier, this isn't just a feeling though- I've actually lost a bit of weight (I am rather tubsy, and due to a couple of health conditions I have, need to lose weight). I still enjoy my food though and eat really well and I and my girlfriend make sure we get the nutrition we need without any bother, the idea that it's difficult to be vegan is just a misconception.

I've been a vegan for nearly 20 years and a vegetarian for 15 years before that, and I can honestly say that I haven't met a dogmatic angry vegan. I've been told mainly by non vegans that they do exist and there are supposed to be loads of them around,, so they must be out there somewhere, perhaps I haven't been looking hard enough, lol.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

China and India, the two most populous countries, will be influential in number of ways and the directions they take will have global environmental consequences. I agree with you in that there is an opportunity for those two countries and other developing countries to leapfrog the developed countries and to learn from some of the mistakes made in the western countries. This has already been identified in terms of things like pollution from factories and cars and also carbon emissions. The Chinese government plans to try and cut meat consumption by 50%. It will be interesting to see if they can manage to achieve those targets and would be a step in the right direction. I'm not sure what is happening in India with regards to meat consumption. I know that India has the largest vegetarian population, however my understanding is that quite a lot of dairy is consumed in India. I am cautiously optimistic these countries will avoid some of the worst excesses of the west and will eventually even overtake, lead the way and become pioneering plant based nations.

It would be nice if your optimistic vision came to pass and that developing countries like the BRICS nations stop short of the excessive consumption of countries like the US and Australia.

I can't remember where I read or heard about this, but India - allegedly - is the one country where rising wealth has not led to increasing meat consumption. Or not yet, anyway.

You could be right, it's hard to tell because the stats appear to be all over the place and don't seem to be that reliable. From what I recall reading, meat consumption was increasing in both India and China, and that poultry was where most of the increase would be in India.

 

[veganomics]

I've been a vegan for nearly 20 years and a vegetarian for 15 years before that, and I can honestly say that I haven't met a dogmatic angry vegan. I've been told mainly by non vegans that they do exist and there are supposed to be loads of them around,, so they must be out there somewhere, perhaps I haven't been looking hard enough, lol.

There are certainly vegans out there who are a bit "in your face" and passionate about what they believe in, however I do think the "angry vegan" stereotype is an exaggeration and for some a rather convenient distraction as it shifts the discussion away from the topic itself and becomes more about the personalities.

 

[mojo pixy]

It's not an exaggeration, I'd say you don't see it because you're already vegan so there's no need for another vegan to be pissed off at you.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

There are certainly vegans out there who are a bit "in your face" and passionate about what they believe in, however I do think the "angry vegan" stereotype is an exaggeration and for some a rather convenient distraction as it shifts the discussion away from the topic itself and becomes more about the personalities.

Indeed, and a gross exaggeration at that. I think that some of the folks who don't particularly care much for vegans need to have some perceived negative trait to cling onto when all the rational and logical arguments fall short. So they project the few "bad" vegans from the internet and pretend that to be what vegans are in real life. They need it to be true because they don't have much else in the way of arguments. They can't play the ball so they try to play the man.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I'm not anticipating eating out much when I move to France - even as a seagan (vegan plus fish) - though dairy intolerance is probably fairly widely accepted.

gentlegreen did you move to france and if so are you still there? How is it going?

I saw this video of a presentation at the animal rights talk in Luxembourg, and there was stuff that might be of interest to you french based folk :-


tl;dr it is a talk by a VegoResto ambassador. VegoResto is like HappyCow but proactively reaching out to restaurants who don't currently have a plant based option on their menu and encouraging/helping them to do so.

I liked her story about the family visit to Barcelona

 

[Jeff Robinson]

There are certainly vegans out there who are a bit "in your face" and passionate about what they believe in, however I do think the "angry vegan" stereotype is an exaggeration and for some a rather convenient distraction as it shifts the discussion away from the topic itself and becomes more about the personalities.

I agree, though there's also nothing wrong with being angry about in injustice. I've just seen this video of a poor mother cow, still weak from just giving birth, desperately trying to keep up with a trailer dragging her baby away:

Cow chases her calves as they're driven away from her | Daily Mail Online

Imagine the psychological trauma that both the mother and the baby are feeling.

Imagine life for the mother living in a permanent cycle of forced pregnancy and lactation, the only real reward for such exhausting bodily labour is being able to love and rear your children. And this one reward is what the dairy industry rob the mother of. When she is "spent" she will be packed off to a slaughterhouse and turned into pet food.

Imagine the fate of the calve: if they are "lucky" they will be male and will be shot in the head at an early age, if they are female they will subject to the same relentless cycle of forced pregnancies that their mother had to endure.

And what's the point of all this violence, exploitation and abuse? So that people can consume this mother's milk? Milk that is not meant for them but for the children that the dairy industry abduct. I'd like to know a single good reason why anyone shouldn't be angry about the existence of this bizarre and cruel industry.

 

[gentlegreen]

gentlegreen did you move to france and if so are you still there? How is it going?

Another 3 years to go yet.

It will be an interesting exercise - given that I very much want to integrate - and may even want to sell them veggies / let them holiday gites ...
I will be playing on the "conseil du médecin" angle rather a lot I suspect.

To be honest I really am no longer "vegan" - the true test will be whether I can resist the fish once I get a whiff of the sea ...

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I agree, though there's also nothing wrong with being angry about in injustice. I've just seen this video of a poor mother cow, still weak from just giving birth, desperately trying to keep up with a trailer dragging her baby away:

Cow chases her calves as they're driven away from her | Daily Mail Online

Imagine the psychological trauma that both the mother and the baby are feeling.

Imagine life for the mother living in a permanent cycle of forced pregnancy and lactation, the only real reward for such exhausting bodily labour is being able to love and rear your children. And this one reward is what the dairy industry rob the mother of. When she is "spent" she will be packed off to a slaughterhouse and turned into pet food.

Imagine the fate of the calve: if they are "lucky" they will be male and will be shot in the head at an early age, if they are female they will subject to the same relentless cycle of forced pregnancies that their mother had to endure.

Unfortunately, for many, that's just some kind of remote and distant sob story that nobody wants to hear.

We collectively don't really give a shit.

And what's the point of all this violence, exploitation and abuse? So that people can consume this mother's milk? Milk that is not meant for them but for the children that the dairy industry abduct. I'd like to know a single good reason why anyone shouldn't be angry about the existence of this bizarre and cruel industry.

It is our superior status that gives us permission to treat those lesser beings in any way we see fit, because we can. I can understand why some people get angry about such injustice, however as long as there is still a widespread disregard and lack of respect for the other creatures that we share this planet with, those angry people will not have the support of the majority and in fact will most likely continue to be mocked, ridiculed and dismissed as extremists.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Another 3 years to go yet.

Oops, sorry my bad, I should have paid a bit more attention.

It will be an interesting exercise - given that I very much want to integrate - and may even want to sell them veggies / let them holiday gites ...
I will be playing on the "conseil du médecin" angle rather a lot I suspect.

I get the impression that things are progressing quite nicely in France, especially with this VegoResto initiative which appears to be fairly well organised, so hopefully you'll have no problems integrating.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

More horror from the UK pig torture industry. I can't imagine that there are sadder, more wretched places than these mass torture chambers that we call "farms".

Undercover Pig Farm Investigation Raises Concerns About Red Tractor Certified Farms

 

[gentlegreen]

I get the impression that things are progressing quite nicely in France, especially with this VegoResto initiative which appears to be fairly well organised, so hopefully you'll have no problems integrating.

They're fairly sparse in the area I'm aiming for, but I won't be eating out much living on a pension - I will have to grow as much of my own food as possible.
I've confirmed that the local supermarkets do soy milk etc, but they're big on "bio" (organic) over there, so I may be looking to buy bulk beans in from somewhere or other and make my own.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

They're fairly sparse in the area I'm aiming for, but I won't be eating out much living on a pension - I will have to grow as much of my own food as possible.
I've confirmed that the local supermarkets do soy milk etc, but they're big on "bio" (organic) over there, so I may be looking to buy bulk beans in from somewhere or other and make my own.

From what I can remember the farmers markets had excellent produce, so you should be alright if you have one of those near you.

 

[veganomics]

I agree, though there's also nothing wrong with being angry about in injustice. I've just seen this video of a poor mother cow, still weak from just giving birth, desperately trying to keep up with a trailer dragging her baby away:

For some people, getting angry is what works for them, it fires them up and gives them the drive and energy to confront and challenge the injustice. For other people a more calm and considered approach might be what works for them. I don't think there's a "right" or "wrong" way to bring about change. It depends on the circumstances and the people involved.

Sometimes being quiet and diplomatic might be appropriate and in other situations that won't work. Using the US civil rights movements as an example, MLK was the quieter one, and Malcom X was more militant. Similarly there are vegans who go out of their way, treading on eggshells in order to try and not upset any of the more sensitive meat eating folks around them, and other vegans who will just "tell it like it is" and won't hold back. I would be more on the MLK side of the fence, however I do think that sometimes there does need to be a bit of force and passion involved in order to effect change especially when there's widespread and powerful opposition defending the injustice. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

One of the main roadblocks at the moment is that the majority are either not aware of the injustices that deliver the meat to their plates or they don't really care/would rather not know. I don't think there's anything wrong with vegans sharing that information in order to increase the awareness. This is already happening and is probably one of the reasons behind the growth in interest in vegan issues.

I am optimistic and believe in the medium to long term, the increasing awareness of the issues involved will see more people tap into their compassionate nature and that there will be fewer cows chasing after their babies being dragged away soon after birth.

 

[ddraig]

BBC Radio 4 - The Food Programme, Young and Vegan

Young and Vegan
The Food Programme
The number of young people turning vegan is rising. Grace Dent meets some of the people opening vegan eateries and finds out how creatives are using social media to further the "vegangelical" cause.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

For some people, getting angry is what works for them, it fires them up and gives them the drive and energy to confront and challenge the injustice. For other people a more calm and considered approach might be what works for them. I don't think there's a "right" or "wrong" way to bring about change. It depends on the circumstances and the people involved.

Sometimes being quiet and diplomatic might be appropriate and in other situations that won't work. Using the US civil rights movements as an example, MLK was the quieter one, and Malcom X was more militant. Similarly there are vegans who go out of their way, treading on eggshells in order to try and not upset any of the more sensitive meat eating folks around them, and other vegans who will just "tell it like it is" and won't hold back. I would be more on the MLK side of the fence, however I do think that sometimes there does need to be a bit of force and passion involved in order to effect change especially when there's widespread and powerful opposition defending the injustice. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

One of the main roadblocks at the moment is that the majority are either not aware of the injustices that deliver the meat to their plates or they don't really care/would rather not know. I don't think there's anything wrong with vegans sharing that information in order to increase the awareness. This is already happening and is probably one of the reasons behind the growth in interest in vegan issues.

I am optimistic and believe in the medium to long term, the increasing awareness of the issues involved will see more people tap into their compassionate nature and that there will be fewer cows chasing after their babies being dragged away soon after birth.

Sometimes I think there are things in life worth getting angry about, or at least passionate if not angry. If you perceive that there is some sort of injustice going on and that there's not a lot being done to stop it, then I think it's perfectly fine to highlight and bring awareness by whatever means you have at your disposal and whatever you're comfortable with. Hopefully it will be peaceful and not cause harm to others, but a bit of "disruption" can help to get things moving. It can take the form of peaceful protests, petition, lobbying, strikes, debates etc.

The "angry vegan" negative stereotype is being used as a tool to justify all manner of bad behaviour, mockery and abusive language as can be seen clearly in some of the posts in this thread.

 

[8ball]

I can't remember where I read or heard about this, but India - allegedly - is the one country where rising wealth has not led to increasing meat consumption. Or not yet, anyway.

Might be partly because culturally in much of India where they do eat meat, the meat is often more like a seasoning as opposed to the 'centre' of a dish.
Might also be partly because it's not hard with the staple veggie ingredients to get enough Omega-3 and zinc.

Both of which can make you angry if you don't get enough of them.

 

[Spymaster]

 

[veganomics]

gentlegreen did you move to france and if so are you still there? How is it going?

I saw this video of a presentation at the animal rights talk in Luxembourg, and there was stuff that might be of interest to you french based folk :-


tl;dr it is a talk by a VegoResto ambassador. VegoResto is like HappyCow but proactively reaching out to restaurants who don't currently have a plant based option on their menu and encouraging/helping them to do so.

I liked her story about the family visit to Barcelona

I had not heard of that conference before seeing this post. Apparently it has been going since 2010 and they have been recording the talks and publishing them on youtube since 2013. I watched a few of the videos and there were some quite good ones. This is a talk that I watched last night by Marloes Boere who comes from a family of dairy farmers and is a philosophy student describing how she relates to the people around her who do not share her morals. As English isn't her first language the talk isn't as fluent as it could be but nevertheless I thought that it was good enough to share here.

 

[veganomics]

It's not an exaggeration, I'd say you don't see it because you're already vegan so there's no need for another vegan to be pissed off at you.

I will have to disagree with you here, based on what I've observed so far. There aren't that many vegans around and of the ones that are I've been probably interacted with more of them than the average omnivore would, and I have never seen anybody getting "pissed off" and angry other meat eaters, in fact it's been quite the opposite. As soon as it becomes apparent that there's someone in the room who does not fit in with the dietary norms (unless you have a medical reason), you are more likely to get the eyes rolling, tutting and ridiculous questioning. I have seen far more hostility and defensive posturing in the other direction. It's almost as if some omnivores feel that they have some sort of entitlement to mock, poke fun and abuse. They're only vegans, it's acceptable.

 

[veganomics]

Sometimes I think there are things in life worth getting angry about, or at least passionate if not angry. If you perceive that there is some sort of injustice going on and that there's not a lot being done to stop it, then I think it's perfectly fine to highlight and bring awareness by whatever means you have at your disposal and whatever you're comfortable with. Hopefully it will be peaceful and not cause harm to others, but a bit of "disruption" can help to get things moving. It can take the form of peaceful protests, petition, lobbying, strikes, debates etc.

The "angry vegan" negative stereotype is being used as a tool to justify all manner of bad behaviour, mockery and abusive language as can be seen clearly in some of the posts in this thread.

I do have admiration for people who are able to stand up for what they believe in when the odds are stacked against them. That takes courage. Now Gary Yourofsky might not be everyone's cup of tea and to some he does appear to be a bit in your face, but I admire his passion I agree with much of what he says, even though some of the things might be a bit over the top.

 

[mojo pixy]

I will have to disagree with you here, based on what I've observed so far.

Of course you will, I wouldn't expect you not to.

It's almost as if some vegans feel that they have some sort of entitlement to mock, poke fun and abuse. They're only meat-eaters, it's acceptable.

FIFY

EtA, In case my point is too subtle, it's this: everyone needs to shut the fuck up and stop judging each others diets as if their own diet and that alone makes them a special kind of person. Me, I don't care what people eat, I'm more interested in how they treat their fellow humans. I don't eat meat because it's what I prefer. I don't need to justify my diet to anyone. Nobody does.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I had not heard of that conference before seeing this post. Apparently it has been going since 2010 and they have been recording the talks and publishing them on youtube since 2013. I watched a few of the videos and there were some quite good ones. This is a talk that I watched last night by Marloes Boere who comes from a family of dairy farmers and is a philosophy student describing how she relates to the people around her who do not share her morals. As English isn't her first language the talk isn't as fluent as it could be but nevertheless I thought that it was good enough to share here.

The conference was a recent discover for me too. There seems to be quite a few interesting talks there which I've skimmed through but haven't had the time to watch. I'll have to set aside a Sunday afternoon for a binge watching session. One of the speakers that caught my eye was Stijn Bruers who appears to be a regular at the conference who calls himself a "rational ethisist" (accurate in beliefs, effective in means, consistent in ends). His stuff seems to be a bit heavy and technical but interesting (to me anyway) nontheless, and I might make a bit of time to wade though his stuff and might even read through his PHD thesis.

In general, I'm liking the direction that things appear to be heading. There are a lot of positive people around getting stuff done and as a result there is increasing awareness (along with a bit of resistance).

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I will have to disagree with you here, based on what I've observed so far. There aren't that many vegans around and of the ones that are I've been probably interacted with more of them than the average omnivore would, and I have never seen anybody getting "pissed off" and angry other meat eaters, in fact it's been quite the opposite. As soon as it becomes apparent that there's someone in the room who does not fit in with the dietary norms (unless you have a medical reason), you are more likely to get the eyes rolling, tutting and ridiculous questioning. I have seen far more hostility and defensive posturing in the other direction. It's almost as if some omnivores feel that they have some sort of entitlement to mock, poke fun and abuse. They're only vegans, it's acceptable.

tbh, it's probably not worth bothering with timewasting trolls like mp.

 

[mojo pixy]

Timewasting troll, yeah that's me.

I prefer to think of myself as a non-judgemental human who keeps my dietary preferences more or less to myself because I'm not a massive egomaniac who thinks the whole world should be like me.

AKA, advocate for animal rights all you like, I sure do, but leave the abuse out. If you want to be seen as someone with superior ethics and morals, don't react to insults from stupid people. It's not difficult.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I do have admiration for people who are able to stand up for what they believe in when the odds are stacked against them. That takes courage. Now Gary Yourofsky might not be everyone's cup of tea and to some he does appear to be a bit in your face, but I admire his passion I agree with much of what he says, even though some of the things might be a bit over the top.

GY is more on the Malcolm X end of the spectrum...

 

[veganomics]

tbh, it's probably not worth bothering with timewasting trolls like mp.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll bear that in mind. I haven't had time to wade through all the posts in the thread and to be able to recognise the "trolls", although some appear to be a bit more obvious than others.

 

[mojo pixy]

Nudge-nudge, wink-wink