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Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

I already answered that in my previous post. My non scientific hunch, meat eaters inferiority complex. They can feel it in their bones that what they're doing isn't that great and so scratch around looking for excuses and justifications and someone to lash out at, hence this "smug superior vegan" nonsense. If it bothers you that much then just stay out of the way, which should be very easy with you being in the overwhelming 99% majority. I'm not sure why you folks find that so hard.

Bottom line is, frankly, I really don't care if you find my position irritating or not, that's up to you. The behaviour of the non obligates in this thread has on balance been much worse than the vegheads (imo), that was mildly irritating I suppose. I think I'll just about survive.

I know you don't care if you irritate non-vegans with your sanctimony. However, given that such a stance is likely to turn people off veganism, I think your attitude is a good example of a phenomenon I've observed; essentially, that furthering the interests of animals comes second to signalling their moral superiority, for many vegans.
 
what a load of bollocks.

Note the use of "she" - and the suggestion that it would be normal to obsess about her weight ..
lol, and they complained about the use of the word "carnist", lol. I think the "hit and run" introduction of that word to the thread was yet another rather lame attempt to smear. Some people are really scraping the barrel. I first heard orthorexia used in that heavily biased god awful BBC documentary last year...
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Attempting to associate vegans with eating disorders or even worse, claim that veganism itself is some kind of eating disorder is below the belt and dishonest.
 
Paolo S your posts make no sense.
Look at the state of the thing you wrote up there, the one saying that vegans don't claim to be morally superior but also you look down on meat eaters on a similar way to how you might look at say people who want to sexually abuse children. What was that?
Nobody is saying that veganism is an eating disorder.
 
I was directed today to a very dodgy French TV discussion from 1992.
I admit the vegan looks rather under-the-weather...



I haven't been able to work out who that is at 21:21, but she says that vegetable protein was inferior to animal protein and at 40:11 a rep from the meat industry saying that vegetarianism had been declared a mental illness ...

And things haven't improved nearly as well as in the UK :-



Life in France is going to be interesting.
 
I was wondering about pets - dogs and cats - do vegans feed them a meat free diet? If that ok for them? ( the pets not the vegans).

Btw this is a genuine query - not intended to be inflammatory.
 
I was wondering about pets - dogs and cats - do vegans feed them a meat free diet? If that ok for them? ( the pets not the vegans).

Btw this is a genuine query - not intended to be inflammatory.
There are some who try to feed cats veggie/vegan food. They are fucking idiots who shouldn't be allowed to keep animals.

Dogs are different and afaik can manage on a (presumably carefully chosen) veggie/vegan diet.
 
I was wondering about pets - dogs and cats - do vegans feed them a meat free diet? If that ok for them? ( the pets not the vegans).

Btw this is a genuine query - not intended to be inflammatory.

Some vegans feed their dogs vegan or vegetarian diets, some allegedly try to feed their cats vegetarian diets but certainly nobody that I know.

IME, most vegans and vegetarians who keep dogs and cats feed them meat and fish because their pets are carnivores.
 
There are some who try to feed cats veggie/vegan food. They are fucking idiots who shouldn't be allowed to keep animals.

Dogs are different and afaik can manage on a (presumably carefully chosen) veggie/vegan diet.
Dogs are omnivores, but much more towards the meat-eating balance of the spectrum than, say, humans or pigs. It is species-appropriate to give them lots of meat.

To quote a vet, if you want a vegan pet, get yourself a rabbit.
 
Nobody is saying that veganism is an eating disorder.

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I was wondering about pets - dogs and cats - do vegans feed them a meat free diet? If that ok for them? ( the pets not the vegans).

Btw this is a genuine query - not intended to be inflammatory.

This dog expert...himself a former vegan ..would strongly disagree . Reckons its very bad for them . Too much gluten, chemicals etc

 
Who are all these people able to have such 'choice' over what they eat? I find it laughable to take any sort of moral stance over diet...which, for me, has been the most contingent act, predicated almost entirely on a range of conditions out of my hands to change. Time, money, knowledge, the rest of the world...including dependents, access...have dictated my diet to be a mish-mash of what I can afford, can acquire for free, can cook...in the time I have available...and so, over a lifetime, I have embraced various 'ethical' positions (such as the laughable period of insane lurchers when I fondly imagined a diet based on 'wild meat'), have fallen prey to guilt (ensuring I shopped at the expensive wholefoods emporium...and as with many of these decisions, poverty has definitely been involved in the 'purity' of my stance...and I have always been a bit lacking in the willpower dept so once falling off the wagon, it was easy to wallow in the gutter. And although I have only been saved from ready-meals by greed and money, I had a Cannery Row moment when 2 of my children were still too young to complain...which consisted of strewing edibles onto a tarp on the floor...because who can spend hours arsing about when toast counts as cooking.However, the single biggest decider (for me, as the reluctant household cook) has been the picky choices, imaginary complaints from the hypochondriacs (several of them). I will, I admit, cook any number of sausages just to pander to the lowest common denominator. I am too exhausted to have any moral position at all and wish a hungry pill was available.

I find the weird foodie thing a bit...decadent and sort of narcissistic...while fully appreciating the politics of food. It's a fine balance, imo.
 
Who are all these people able to have such 'choice' over what they eat? I find it laughable to take any sort of moral stance over diet...which, for me, has been the most contingent act, predicated almost entirely on a range of conditions out of my hands to change. Time, money, knowledge, the rest of the world...including dependents, access...have dictated my diet to be a mish-mash of what I can afford, can acquire for free, can cook...in the time I have available...and so, over a lifetime, I have embraced various 'ethical' positions (such as the laughable period of insane lurchers when I fondly imagined a diet based on 'wild meat'), have fallen prey to guilt (ensuring I shopped at the expensive wholefoods emporium...and as with many of these decisions, poverty has definitely been involved in the 'purity' of my stance...and I have always been a bit lacking in the willpower dept so once falling off the wagon, it was easy to wallow in the gutter. And although I have only been saved from ready-meals by greed and money, I had a Cannery Row moment when 2 of my children were still too young to complain...which consisted of strewing edibles onto a tarp on the floor...because who can spend hours arsing about when toast counts as cooking.However, the single biggest decider (for me, as the reluctant household cook) has been the picky choices, imaginary complaints from the hypochondriacs (several of them). I will, I admit, cook any number of sausages just to pander to the lowest common denominator. I am too exhausted to have any moral position at all and wish a hungry pill was available.

I find the weird foodie thing a bit...decadent and sort of narcissistic...while fully appreciating the politics of food. It's a fine balance, imo.

Precisely why the politics of food has to involve, well, politics – not just individuals making choices, but societies effecting change at society-wide level. The choices available to us are contingent on all kinds of things, as you say.

tbh in most other subjects on here, this is the starting point. But not this, it seems.
 
As a gardener, surely cooking up a mass of yummy veggies would come naturally to you ?

Not really GG. I grow some veggies (which can be processed or stored)...but food is not emotionally neutral for me...and I am completely loathe to allow the parade of contentious issues (especially my own personal antipathy) to make any inroads in my most enjoyable, redeeming, thrilling activity. I love plants for numerous reasons...not just as edibles.
 
I know you don't care if you irritate non-vegans with your sanctimony.
Er, nope you got that bit wrong. I don't care if shallow superficial obligates choose to feel irritated by the weakness in their own arguments.

However, given that such a stance is likely to turn people off veganism, I think your attitude is a good example of a phenomenon I've observed; essentially, that furthering the interests of animals comes second to signalling their moral superiority, for many vegans.
Yet more made up psychbabble and pure invention I presume to cover up for you lack of cogent argument. I would hope that the folks that choose to go vegan do so based on the solid foundation of reason, logic and compassion and not be the fickle type that are easily persuaded or disuaded by some random posts on a forum, but regardless, your assertion that what I've posted here is "likely to turn people off veganism" (once again no citation) is yet more completely made up bollocks. The arguments in favour of veganism speak for themselves regardless of individuals. lol @ "for many vegans". I'd love to see the study you conducted to come up with this rubbish.
 
So how do we move forward from here? That's the question that nags at me. What results do we want to produce, and what is the best way to produce those results? What compromises are people prepared to make in order to forge effective alliances that will produce some of those results? Are the vegan activists posting here prepared to work with meat-eaters who want change? Is the free range meat or dairy farmer striving for sustainable and, to their eyes at least, humane farming methods the enemy or a potential ally? If the former, then what sort of change do you think is possible?
I'm not sure that I would count as an "activist". I don't go out of my way to lobby support or protest. I'd consider myself more of an advocate. My sphere of influence are those around me and my purchasing decisions.

I'm not sure what action you are proposing tbh, and I'm not sure why you feel the need to form some kind of alliance with vegans when your position is more compatible with the non obligate omnivore meat eating majority. From my perspective there is little value in supporting "humane slaughter". I won't be going out to support or buy "humanely slaughtered" meat as some kind of "compromise" to make some meat eaters feel better about what they do. The "humane" part makes it ever so slightly "better" I suppose, however the big elephant in the room is the "slaughter" part which you appear to completely gloss over as if it's something insignificant.

It's frankly it's a bit of a nonsense to expect vegans to support ANY kind of slaughter. In the same way that the majority appear not to care about the slaughtering, they also don't care about the treatment as long as they don't see it and get their meat cheap. In the same way that you don't believe it's wrong to slaughter an animal for food when there's no need to, the majority don't believe it's wrong to factory farm and lock animals in prison. Who cares, if they're mistreated, they're only animals, right?

So how do we move forward? Behave in accordance with your values and beliefs and associate with those that share those beliefs. That's the best suggestion I can offer at the moment. I think it's a bit off trying to point the finger at "extremist" vegans and try blame them for the widespread mistreatment of animals, and bit of a cop out. It is the very high demand for meat products that is the driving force behind those conditions. Changing from feedlot to pasture fed is not practical at the current (and increasing) levels of demand, from either an environmental or an economic point of view.

Of course I'm going to agree that it is wrong to mistreat animals and that we should do what we can to reduce or eliminate that, HOWEVER I and probably most vegans also believe that killing them when we are not obligated to do so is even more wrong and it isn't something that I would condone.
 
Er, nope you got that bit wrong. I don't care if shallow superficial obligates choose to feel irritated by the weakness in their own arguments.

Yet more made up psychbabble and pure invention I presume to cover up for you lack of cogent argument. I would hope that the folks that choose to go vegan do so based on the solid foundation of reason, logic and compassion and not be the fickle type that are easily persuaded or disuaded by some random posts on a forum, but regardless, your assertion that what I've posted here is "likely to turn people off veganism" (once again no citation) is yet more completely made up bollocks. The arguments in favour of veganism speak for themselves regardless of individuals. lol @ "for many vegans". I'd love to see the study you conducted to come up with this rubbish.

You really have no empathy, if you still fail to appreciate that what irritates people is many vegans' air of superiority.

I've given a cogent argument: I eat meat because the pleasure it gives me outweighs the benefits (as I perceive them) of not eating meat. Don't confuse your inability to understand that position with a lack of cogency.

I don't need a citation for the proposition that vegan sanctimony puts off potential converts to veganism. I'm a case in point; I have sympathy for veganism (as mentioned earlier). But, part of what puts me off is that so many vegans seem like utter dicks. (Ones I've dealt with; my experience, rather than any study.)
 
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