Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[PaoloSanchez]

You really have no empathy, if you still fail to appreciate that what irritates people is your air of superiority.

No still wrong. Repeating an error doesn't not magically turn into a truth.

I don't need a citation for the proposition. I'm a case in point; I have sympathy for veganism. But, part of what puts me off is that so many vegans seem like utter dicks. (Ones I've dealt with; my experience, rather than any study. )

Yes, personal anecdotes "I met a vegan once", "I met a black man once", " I met a jew once", "I met a Bulgarian once" ...and he was a dick.

I suspect that your irritation is caused more by your lack of progress in this debate more than anything else. You appear to have run out of ideas and have alligned yourself with the rest of the troll bully gang (which incidentally includes bonafide dicks...surely that should put you off being an obligate omnivore, no?)

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Is Peter Caine a household name in some circles, or is he just some random guy with crows and pigeons wandering around his house and some terrible facial hair difficulties?

He is whatever CR manages to dredge up from his google/youtube search activity, lol.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Paolo S your posts make no sense.

What, none of them? Are you sure?

Look at the state of the thing you wrote up there, the one saying that vegans don't claim to be morally superior but also you look down on meat eaters on a similar way to how you might look at say people who want to sexually abuse children. What was that?

lol @ "look at the state of the thing you wrote...".
It might be better if you read it properly and accurately recalled what I actually said rather than your own cockeyed version.

Nobody is saying that veganism is an eating disorder.

...and this is the person claiming that my posts make no sense. Just drop a word into a thread for no good reason and run away, and then claim "I wasn't trying to start nuffink...honest guv". A fine example of cowardly trolling.

 

[Spymaster]

 

[Athos]

No still wrong. Repeating an error doesn't not magically turn into a truth.


Yes, personal anecdotes "I met a vegan once", "I met a black man once", " I met a jew once", "I met a Bulgarian once" ...and he was a dick.

I suspect that your irritation is caused more by your lack of progress in this debate more than anything else. You appear to have run out of ideas and have alligned yourself with the rest of the troll bully gang (which incidentally includes bonafide dicks...surely that should put you off being an obligate omnivore, no?)

 

[Spymaster]

No still wrong. Repeating an error doesn't not magically turn into a truth.


Yes, personal anecdotes "I met a vegan once", "I met a black man once", " I met a jew once", "I met a Bulgarian once" ...and he was a dick.

The irony of this post seems lost on our flower munching friend here!

 

[bimble]

Why are you calling the enemy an 'obligate omnivore' PaoloSanchez , you wally ? It's nonsense and directly counter to your argument.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Some vegans feed their dogs vegan or vegetarian diets, some allegedly try to feed their cats vegetarian diets but certainly nobody that I know.

IME, most vegans and vegetarians who keep dogs and cats feed them meat and fish because their pets are carnivores.

When we had cats they were given regular cat food (whiskas). As cats are obligate carnivores it's a lot harder feed them a plant based diet and for them to remain healthy. Harder, but perhaps not impossible.



Of course, providing your domestic cat with a steady stream of its preferred prey is hardly convenient or humane—and cats can wreak havoc on local wildlife populations if left to forage on their own. So we fill them up on dry “kibble,” which combines animal products with vegetable-based starches, and meat-based canned “wet” foods, many containing parts of animals cats would likely never encounter, much less hunt and kill, in a purely natural situation. Most cats adapt to such diets, but it is far from ideal nutritionally.

Veggie Cat Food? Why Not All Cats Need Meat

When we had a rescued cat, we fed it regular cat food (whiskas). I would probably do the same if I had a cat now, but I would also investigate to see if anybody has successfully managed to keep a cat healthy on plant based food. I mean if we can create formula based on cows milk to feed human babies and do it quite successfully, it's possible that it can also be done for cats, no?

VeganCats.com - Frequently Asked Questions - Vegan Cat Food - Vegan Dog Food

 

[Spymaster]

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Why are you calling the enemy an 'obligate omnivore' PaoloSanchez , you wally ? It's nonsense and directly counter to your argument.

What enemy? What are you talking about? Why do you post random riddles? When will you post something that actually makes sense and contribute meaningfully to the thread instead of trolling?

 

[xenon]

Why would a vegan have a pet cat anyway?

 

[Spymaster]

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Why would a vegan have a pet cat anyway?

For the same reasons that a non vegan would have a pet cat.

 

[AnnaKarpik]

Why would a vegan have a pet cat anyway?

Quite. There is even less excuse for exploiting living things as companions than there is for eating them; at least eating is obligatory.

eta; are these companions animals also sexually mutilated to make them easier for humans to live with?

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Quite. There is even less excuse for exploiting living things as companions than there is for eating them; at least eating is obligatory.

First of all, for most modern folk, meat eating is not obligatory, it is a taste preference. Secondly, I can only speak for myself but the cat that we had was an abandoned one that we rescued so I'm not sure that counts as "exploitation". I did not see to many signs of stress and unhappiness when she was with us.

eta; are these companions animals also sexually mutilated to make them easier for humans to live with?

Hmm, that's an overly dramatic word to use in this instance, no? So I take it if a man has a vasectomy, that's also "sexual mutilation", right? Our cat had already been sterilised before she was with us, and I don't consider it to be sexual mutilation.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

When we had cats they were given regular cat food (whiskas). As cats are obligate carnivores it's a lot harder feed them a plant based diet and for them to remain healthy. Harder, but perhaps not impossible.

View attachment 113379

Of course, providing your domestic cat with a steady stream of its preferred prey is hardly convenient or humane—and cats can wreak havoc on local wildlife populations if left to forage on their own. So we fill them up on dry “kibble,” which combines animal products with vegetable-based starches, and meat-based canned “wet” foods, many containing parts of animals cats would likely never encounter, much less hunt and kill, in a purely natural situation. Most cats adapt to such diets, but it is far from ideal nutritionally.

Veggie Cat Food? Why Not All Cats Need Meat

When we had a rescued cat, we fed it regular cat food (whiskas). I would probably do the same if I had a cat now, but I would also investigate to see if anybody has successfully managed to keep a cat healthy on plant based food. I mean if we can create formula based on cows milk to feed human babies and do it quite successfully, it's possible that it can also be done for cats, no?

VeganCats.com - Frequently Asked Questions - Vegan Cat Food - Vegan Dog Food

Ours are fussy buggers as it is. I suspect they'd leave if we started feeding them that. Or get better at hunting I guess.

 

[xenon]

For the same reasons that a non vegan would have a pet cat.

What reasons are they then? I don't have a cat though we had one when I grew up. Originally it was bought to kill mice.

 

[xenon]

First of all, for most modern folk, meat eating is not obligatory, it is a taste preference. Secondly, I can only speak for myself but the cat that we had was an abandoned one that we rescued so I'm not sure that counts as "exploitation". I did not see to many signs of stress and unhappiness when she was with us.

Hmm, that's an overly dramatic word to use in this instance, no? So I take it if a man has a vasectomy, that's also "sexual mutilation", right? Our cat had already been sterilised before she was with us, and I don't consider it to be sexual mutilation.

The man has a choice. Cutting animals. It's fine in some circumstances then? Such as for human convenience?

 

[UnderOpenSky]

What reasons are they then? I don't have a cat though we had one when I grew up. Originally it was bought to kill mice.

I asked myself that question when the wet nose woke me up this morning. They're kinda cute and most definitely not kept for killing things.

 

[Spymaster]

Quite. There is even less excuse for exploiting living things as companions than there is for eating them ...

And why keep a pet whose existence pretty much depends on its owner supporting the slaughterhouse industry?

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Ours are fussy buggers as it is. I suspect they'd leave if we started feeding them that. Or get better at hunting I guess.

Our cat was very fussy too, and would only eat a particular whiskas flavour.
tbf, the choice of commercial cat food isn't great, which is perhaps why a lot of domestic cats end up going to the vets anyway for some ailment or other.
If I were to have another cat I would spend the time investigating and checking what others who claim to have successfully raised healthy vegan cats have done. There appear to be at least a few of them "nutters" out there...

"I have been feeding my rescue FIV cats a vegan formula for more than 20 years extremely successfully. While the predominant objection is that felines are carnivores, an undisputed fact, felines can also adapt well to a well balanced vegan formula. The primary reasons for considering making a cat vegan are:

1. The commercial pet food is plagued with recalls. All commercial pet food brands, including all major brands have been recalled numerous times for having toxic ingredients that have sicken and killed millions of dogs and cats. That’s because they spent billions of dollars in advertising and not in quality. Vegan dog and cat food companies don’t have any of the toxic ingredients their counterparts have, making vegan dog and cat food the healthiest and the best choice.
Vegan dog & cat food companies. EVOLUTION http://www.petfoodshop.com Vdog.com Vegepet.com ami vegan cat food.

2. Ethically and morally, being vegan is about not participating in the suffering and exploitation of animals. Feeding your dog or cat dead animal waste, which is mainly the ingredients on all commercial pet food is cruel and supports the slaughterhouse industry. Instead you should feed your loved ones a complete, balanced vegan food free from toxics and cruelty. The choice is simple."

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Our cat was very fussy too, and would only eat a particular whiskas flavour.
tbf, the choice of commercial cat food isn't great, which is perhaps why a lot of domestic cats end up going to the vets anyway for some ailment or other.
If I were to have another cat I would spend the time investigating and checking what others who claim to have successfully raised healthy vegan cats have done. There appear to be at least a few of them "nutters" out there...

"I have been feeding my rescue FIV cats a vegan formula for more than 20 years extremely successfully. While the predominant objection is that felines are carnivores, an undisputed fact, felines can also adapt well to a well balanced vegan formula. The primary reasons for considering making a cat vegan are:

1. The commercial pet food is plagued with recalls. All commercial pet food brands, including all major brands have been recalled numerous times for having toxic ingredients that have sicken and killed millions of dogs and cats. That’s because they spent billions of dollars in advertising and not in quality. Vegan dog and cat food companies don’t have any of the toxic ingredients their counterparts have, making vegan dog and cat food the healthiest and the best choice.
Vegan dog & cat food companies. EVOLUTION http://www.petfoodshop.com Vdog.com Vegepet.com ami vegan cat food.

2. Ethically and morally, being vegan is about not participating in the suffering and exploitation of animals. Feeding your dog or cat dead animal waste, which is mainly the ingredients on all commercial pet food is cruel and supports the slaughterhouse industry. Instead you should feed your loved ones a complete, balanced vegan food free from toxics and cruelty. The choice is simple."

I know. It's fucked. As a new cat owner last year I spent time researching cat foods that had little in the way of filler and used quality ingredients. My budget wouldn't stretch to some of the poshest brands in tiny sachets, but I tried all the ones within my budget (still a fair bit more then supermarket stuff). We assumed that our cats weren't that food driven.

They went to someone else whilst we were away and was demolishing their cats food. Turns out they just hated the stuff. After many complaints I just gave up and started buying them whiskers which is what they clearly prefer. Supplemented from whatever they can beg from me when I preparing food.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I've been finding it hard to articulate the question that's nagged at me through this thread. I'm going to try to do it here.

Anyone looking in detail at the food production system we have at the moment is unlikely to think it is ok. Various aspects of it are clearly far from ok, primarily to do with animal welfare and environmental degradation. So how do we move forward from here?

We first have to acknowledge a fundamental disagreement that we have: you see factory farming as the problem. I see factory farming as a symptom of a more basic, fundamental problem: the belief that the other animals are commodities for humans to exploit and inflict violence upon when we have no need to. To effectively combat factory farming we have to challenge the idea that it's acceptable to inflict needless violence on the other animals.

That's the question that nags at me. What results do we want to produce, and what is the best way to produce those results?

The result we (vegans) want is an end to human violence against, and exploitation of, the other animals. The best way to achieve this is by disengaging, as far as practicable, from violent and animal-exploiting practices and encouraging and assisting others to do the same. That's the first step. Once there is a critical mass of people who embrace the vegan ethic, this will open up meaningful possibilities for collective political action.

What compromises are people prepared to make in order to forge effective alliances that will produce some of those results?

Whatever compromises are necessary to effectively oppose human violence against the other animals.

Are the vegan activists posting here prepared to work with meat-eaters who want change?

I'd enter into an alliance with animal eaters if they are opposing things like the badger cull, fox hunting, vivisection, wild animal circuses or are trying to get cruel practices banned, such as farrowing crates or mutilations without anaesthesia. That being said, in my experience 99% of the people involved in all of these campaigns are vegan anyway.

Is the free range meat or dairy farmer striving for sustainable and, to their eyes at least, humane farming methods the enemy or a potential ally? If the former, then what sort of change do you think is possible?

They are the enemy - because they inflict needless violence on animals. They are also potential allies to the extent that they decide to desist from doing so, like this wonderful man. The sort of change that I think is possible is veganism. Millions of people are already living happy, richly fulfilling lives without supporting violence against and exploitation of the other animals. There is no reason why this shouldn't be the dominant way of living - at least in a developed, industrialised society like our own.

 

[bimble]

Anyone seriously considering trying to keep a cat and not feeding them meat , just get a rabbit instead, ffs. Madness.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Quite. There is even less excuse for exploiting living things as companions than there is for eating them; at least eating is obligatory.

eta; are these companions animals also sexually mutilated to make them easier for humans to live with?

IME most vegans who have cats either bought those cats before they went vegan or they are rescue cats. They regard feeding their cats meat as the lessor of two evils.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I know. It's fucked. As a new cat owner last year I spent time researching cat foods that had little in the way of filler and used quality ingredients. My budget wouldn't stretch to some of the poshest brands in tiny sachets, but I tried all the ones within my budget (still a fair bit more then supermarket stuff). We assumed that our cats were that food driven.

They went to someone else whilst we were away and was demolishing their cats food. Turns out they just hated the stuff. After many complaints I just gave up and started buying them whiskers which is what they clearly prefer. Supplemented from whatever they can beg from me when I preparing food.

Yes we ended up throwing away lots of expensive "posh" cat food too. I think maybe Whiskas put some kind of highly addictive cat cocaine in their cat food.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We first have to acknowledge a fundamental disagreement that we have: you see factory farming as the problem. I see factory farming as a symptom of a more basic, fundamental problem: the belief that the other animals are commodities for humans to exploit and inflict violence upon when we have no need to. To effectively combat factory farming we have to challenge the idea that it's acceptable to inflict needless violence on the other animals.



The result we (vegans) want is an end to human violence against, and exploitation of, the other animals. The best way to achieve this is by disengaging, as far as practicable, from violent and animal-exploiting practices and encouraging and assisting others to do the same. That's the first step. Once there is a critical mass of people who embrace the vegan ethic, this will open up meaningful possibilities for collective political action.



Whatever compromises are necessary to effectively oppose human violence against the other animals.



I'd enter into an alliance with animal eaters if they are opposing things like the badger cull, fox hunting, vivisection, wild animal circuses or are trying to get cruel practices banned, such as farrowing crates or mutilations without anaesthesia. That being said, in my experience 99% of the people involved in all of these campaigns are vegan anyway.



They are the enemy - because they inflict needless violence on animals. They are also potential allies to the extent that they decide to desist from doing so, like this wonderful man. The sort of change that I think is possible is veganism. Millions of people are already living happy, richly fulfilling lives without supporting violence against and exploitation of the other animals. There is no reason why this shouldn't be the dominant way of living - at least in a developed, industrialised society like our own.

Thanks for your reply. Thinking about it that post was basically aimed at you. You are right that we do still have a fundamental disagreement. But I think at least we are able to talk to each other rather than past each other.

 

[NoXion]

Every square foot of land occupied or used by humans and their associated activities represents land in which wild animals have either been pushed out, or pushed into the very margins, depending on whether one includes pests, parasites and various other hangers-on in the definition of "wild".

Since vegans and animal rights types supposedly do not privilege the lives of animals over that of humans, then on what basis do humans have a right to exist as a technological species, given the costs of civilization on the rest of nature?

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Every square foot of land occupied or used by humans and their associated activities represents land in which wild animals have either been pushed out, or pushed into the very margins, depending on whether one includes pests, parasites and various other hangers-on in the definition of "wild".

Since vegans and animal rights types supposedly do not privilege the lives of animals over that of humans, then on what basis do humans have a right to exist as a technological species, given the costs of civilization on the rest of nature?

Even as a meat eater I can see that's a shit argument. You can only make choices based on the world that you live in.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

We first have to acknowledge a fundamental disagreement that we have: you see factory farming as the problem. I see factory farming as a symptom of a more basic, fundamental problem: the belief that the other animals are commodities for humans to exploit and inflict violence upon when we have no need to. To effectively combat factory farming we have to challenge the idea that it's acceptable to inflict needless violence on the other animals.

Exactly! I'm not sure how it's possible for there to be some kind of alliance between those who believe that it's wrong to kill and eat animals when we have no need to, and those who believe that there's nothing wrong with that. They are polar opposites.

They are the enemy - because they inflict needless violence on animals. They are also potential allies to the extent that they decide to desist from doing so, like this wonderful man. The sort of change that I think is possible is veganism. Millions of people are already living happy, richly fulfilling lives without supporting violence against and exploitation of the other animals. There is no reason why this shouldn't be the dominant way of living - at least in a developed, industrialised society like our own.

He is indeed a wonderful man and I posted a reference to him earlier in this thread. There are other influential wonderful people out there who are making a difference and are making people think about what they are doing. John Robbins and Howard Lyman both former meat and diary industry insiders then there's people like Dr Vadana Shiva and ex Citibank VP Phillip Wollen. All good people.