Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[PaoloSanchez]

Honestly Paulo I don't think this is right. For instance, all farmers and butchers would be vegan.

All farmers and butchers? Perhaps not.

Livestock farmers mostly outsource the slaughtering bit to the abattoirs, and abattoir workers and butchers wouldn't be doing if if they weren't ok with it. (or had no other choice). ...and even then there appears to be some evidence suggesting that there may be problems associated with this kind of continued exposure to that nastiness...

Slaughtering for a living: A hermeneutic phenomenological perspective on the well-being of slaughterhouse employees

If the sight and smell of dead animals was so enticing surely the marketing folk would be using those images in their advertising campaigns instead of going out of their way to distance the realities from the public.

Of course there are some people who have no problem looking at that stuff, probably the ones that can happily work at an abattoir/butcher or can eat a squirrel raw, however imo more people that you might think would have an aversion to witnessing such cruelty and would be put off were they to be exposed to it more regularly.

Perhaps we've all gone a bit soft, eh?

 

[Saul Goodman]

I'm not sure if his field of study is relevant tbh,
The presentation on the biology of disgust gives context behind what I quoted from his talk, and I don't believe he was trying to say that we are trying to make a cow look exactly like a carrot.

The main theme behind what he was saying is that in order for many of us to eat meat and not be disgusted by it we have to heavily modify it by giving it more plant like qualities.

The comment about it being daft to "make veg look/taste like meat" is rather curious because it would appear that we spend quite a lot of time and energy distancing meat from it's true origins. What animal does a burger, a nugget, a slice of ham, or a rasher of bacon look like?

The sort of tastes textures and smells associated with dead flesh that would cause an obligate carnivore/omnivore to salivate and drool appears to not quite have the same effect on us, until it is seasoned, cooked, dried or preserved.

We don't make burgers to kid people they're not eating animals. What do you suggest we do to keep cuts of meat looking like the animals they originated from? The only way a cow can be kept looking like a cow is to serve the fucking thing whole. I'm not Desperate Dan. I can't eat a whole cow. You do realise that cuts of meat don't even remotely resemble the animal they came from, right?

This:

The main theme behind what he was saying is that in order for many of us to eat meat and not be disgusted by it we have to heavily modify it by giving it more plant like qualities.

Is utter bollocks. I've been eating meat all my life, and I've yet to eat a piece that looks anything like a plant.
Dr Milton Mills' research also seems to indicate that a vegan diet can cure HIV

 

[existentialist]

Perhaps we've all gone a bit soft, eh?

I don't know about "angry vegans", but your smug certainty certainly doesn't endear the vegan cause to me much.

 

[MickiQ]

The belief that humans have a disgust response to a dead animal is ludicrous we just haven't had time to evolve one and it would be counter-productive anyway, the human race is about 3000 generations old and for the first 2500-2700 of those we were hunter gatherers who were very used to killing, skinning and cooking animals, For almost all the rest most people up until the last century would either keep small animals and certainly bought fresh meat (clearly from dead animals) from butchers. The buying of food in plastic packaging from supermarkets is 2 generations old at most. This guy is trying to pass vegetarianism off as the natural state of humans, it isn't we're omnivores and evolution has given us digestive systems that are meant to cope with a mixed diet. People in the west undoubtably do eat a diet that is too rich in meat especially red meat since we aren't true carnivores, we're basically scavengers whose big brains have enabled us to opt out of the natural order of things.

 

[existentialist]

The belief that humans have a disgust response to a dead animal is ludicrous we just haven't had time to evolve one and it would be counter-productive anyway, the human race is about 3000 generations old and for the first 2500-2700 of those we were hunter gatherers who were very used to killing, skinning and cooking animals, For almost all the rest most people up until the last century would either keep small animals and certainly bought fresh meat (clearly from dead animals) from butchers. The buying of food in plastic packaging from supermarkets is 2 generations old at most. This guy is trying to pass vegetarianism off as the natural state of humans, it isn't we're omnivores and evolution has given us digestive systems that are meant to cope with a mixed diet. People in the west undoubtably do eat a diet that is too rich in meat especially red meat since we aren't true carnivores, we're basically scavengers whose big brains have enabled us to opt out of the natural order of things.

I can't cite a source, but I have a strong feeling that the "disgust response" being discussed here is not an innate thing, but learned. Young children left to their own devices display no indication towards disgust around pretty much anything. The disgust tends to arise in response to scuttling animals, bitter tastes, and nasty smells.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I do like how this chicken has been disguised.

It's all but invisible on that bed of vegetables.

 

[MickiQ]

I do like how this chicken has been disguised.

It's all but invisible on that bed of vegetables.

Once it's all cooked and crispy it will blend into the background even more

 

[Saul Goodman]

It's a marvel, isn't it, how a butcher has cleverly disguised this T-bone steak...

... as an aubergine.

It could easily infiltrate a vegan cook-off.

 

[Funky_monks]

I can't cite a source, but I have a strong feeling that the "disgust response" being discussed here is not an innate thing, but learned. Young children left to their own devices display no indication towards disgust around pretty much anything. The disgust tends to arise in response to scuttling animals, bitter tastes, and nasty smells.

I think that there's a certain age that it kicks in, possibly in response to the anthropomorphism in children's films, books and TV (not that there's anything wrong with the stories).
My daughter has known it all her life - I used to get lots of free pheasants from the shoot and when my neighbour has been a keeper, I've been out with him to take rabbits etc, which got gutted etc in the kitchen (I looked after her a lot as a nipper). I've raised and killed chickens and she's often watched - she just doesn't have that disgust thing at all.

 

[Poot]

I find chunks of dead animal quite offputting. I also don't really understand why you would eat one animal and not another. For example your dog gets a graze on her leg and you feel sympathy but you're fine with watching someone cut a pig's leg off to make into bacon. You could eat dog too, you know. Apparently it's quite tasty. But for some reason people are squeamish about that. I don't know how they draw a distinction. I was also baffled by the horse meat scandal. Surely if you are eating a cow anyway a bit of horse won't matter? After all, if I'm eating a mushroom stroganoff I don't complain if it has red pepper in it.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

The belief that humans have a disgust response to a dead animal is ludicrous we just haven't had time to evolve one and it would be counter-productive anyway, the human race is about 3000 generations old and for the first 2500-2700 of those we were hunter gatherers who were very used to killing, skinning and cooking animals, For almost all the rest most people up until the last century would either keep small animals and certainly bought fresh meat (clearly from dead animals) from butchers. The buying of food in plastic packaging from supermarkets is 2 generations old at most. This guy is trying to pass vegetarianism off as the natural state of humans, it isn't we're omnivores and evolution has given us digestive systems that are meant to cope with a mixed diet. People in the west undoubtably do eat a diet that is too rich in meat especially red meat since we aren't true carnivores, we're basically scavengers whose big brains have enabled us to opt out of the natural order of things.

Well, I disagree with most of that (I think). We just haven't had time to evolve a disgust response? I'm not sure if that's actually true or what you've based that on.

Regarding the "we are omnivores" argument, I think this has been covered many times and again, I disagree with that but I cba to type out all the reasons, especially when Mic has already done a good job of it (with science and references) which was then thoroughly debunked by naysayers.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

anyway, the human race is about 3000 generations old .

Eh?

Sumer - Wikipedia

 

[MickiQ]

Eh?

Sumer - Wikipedia

That is the stupidest response ever, Sumer is the first civilisation, Homo Sapiens (which we are) has been around for something like 120,000 - 300,000 years, we have been around as a species a lot longer than even our earliest civilisation.
Homo sapiens - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Funky_monks]

Well, I disagree with most of that (I think). We just haven't had time to evolve a disgust response? I'm not sure if that's actually true or what you've based that on.

Regarding the "we are omnivores" argument, I think this has been covered many times and again, I disagree with that but I cba to type out all the reasons, especially when Mic has already done a good job of it (with science and references) which was then thoroughly debunked by naysayers.

Are you seriously saying we've evolved a disgust response since my grandparents generation?

 

[Saul Goodman]

I honestly believe that the reason more people don't go vegan is because their spokespersons always seem to be batshit crazy, and people are either scared to be tarred with the same brush, or scared they'll turn into 'that' person.

 

[Poot]

I honestly believe that the reason more people don't go vegan is because their spokespersons always seem to be batshit crazy, and people are either scared to be tarred with the same brush, or scared they'll turn into 'that' person.

Being vegan is very, very restrictive. You're essentially saying 'if you EVER catch me eating minstrels at the bus stop, you can call me a hypocrite'. So you need to be the sort of person who is very, very sure of themselves. Which is, yeah, often that sort of person.

 

[Funky_monks]

I honestly believe that the reason more people don't go vegan is because their spokespersons always seem to be batshit crazy, and people are either scared to be tarred with the same brush, or scared they'll turn into 'that' person.

Its embarrassing. My girlfriend is a vegan and found the disgust response notion as utterly ridiculous as I did, when I showed her the thread.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Its embarrassing. My girlfriend is a vegan and found the disgust response notion as utterly ridiculous as I did, when I showed her the thread.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are plenty of sane vegans, but the self-appointed ambassadors and spokespersons of veganism always seem to be completely detached from reality.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Are you seriously saying we've evolved a disgust response since my grandparents generation?

Nope, that's not at all what I'm saying. It is your premise that we were hunter gatherers for thousands of years and therefore could not have a disgust response otherwise we would have starved that I disagree with, and your "we are omnivores" point. As I said Mic covered both of those and other oft cited "objections" quite well so there's no need for me to repeat them.

 

[Funky_monks]

Nope, that's not at all what I'm saying. It is your premise that we were hunter gatherers for thousands of years and therefore could not have a disgust response otherwise we would have starved that I disagree with, and your "we are omnivores" point. As I said Mic covered both of those and other oft cited "objections" quite well so there's no need for me to repeat them.

You disagree that humans are omnivorous?

Please explain our digestive system and dentition. TIA.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Being vegan is very, very restrictive. You're essentially saying 'if you EVER catch me eating minstrels at the bus stop, you can call me a hypocrite'. So you need to be the sort of person who is very, very sure of themselves. Which is, yeah, often that sort of person.

I can see why some would believe it to be "restrictive" but I don't believe it is at all, and imo, it's much more than "just a diet". It's an ethical/moral position.

Of course in a world that is +90% non vegan it can be a bit of a challenge to align your actions with your morals especially when you confronted by naysayers and dickheads who just want to have a dig but imo it's best to ignore them as much as possible.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

You disagree that humans are omnivorous?

Please explain our digestive system and dentition. TIA.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some posts ago, (tl;dr cba). It's already been done, and done very well imo. I will repost the relevant material which you are free to watch or ignore.



...and debunked here...

 

[Funky_monks]

Of course in a world that is +90% non vegan it can be a bit of a challenge to align your actions with your morals especially when you confronted by naysayers and dickheads who just want to have a dig but imo it's best to ignore them as much as possible.

I'm sorry, but being challenged on utter drivel does not constitute "naysaying".

To be fair though, I've met more than a few vegans in my life and you are the first to espouse the theories of loons like Dr Milton.

What's his doctorate in please?

 

[Funky_monks]

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some posts ago, (tl;dr cba). It's already been done, and done very well imo. I will repost the relevant material which you are free to watch or ignore.



...and debunked here...

I'm sorry but that is drivel.
We can't digest cellulose - which is why we lack a rumen. It's also why cooking vegetables helps digestion.
High levels of cholesterol didn't really exist as little as two generations ago.
What percentage of the Masai have high blood pressure?
Homo sapiens is the ultimate generalist.
We have populations who thrive on blubber and seal meat for a lot of the year (Inuit) and those who thrive on a more varied diet.

What do you make of all the anthropology that supports humans as being hunter-gatherers until the dawn of farming?

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I'm sorry, but being challenged on utter drivel does not constitute "naysaying".

To be fair though, I've met more than a few vegans in my life and you are the first to espouse the theories of loons like Dr Milton.

What's his doctorate in please?

Right, ok. I don't think I'll be bothering to reply to your future posts as you appear to be one of those dickheads I was referring to earlier. Of course I'll stand corrected if I'm mistaken.

So you dismissed Dr Mills stuff as "utter drivel" and that he is a loon without actually listening to what he had to say and without any citations of your own...and what are your credentials...sir?

 

[Funky_monks]

Right, ok. I don't think I'll be bothering to reply to your future posts as you appear to be one of those dickheads I was referring to earlier. Of course I'll stand corrected if I'm mistaken.

So you dismissed Dr Mills stuff as "utter drivel" and that he is a loon without actually listening to what he had to say and without any citations of your own...and what are your credentials...sir?

Off the top of my head: BSc (hons), MSc, both in the biological sciences. Currently a degree level lecturer, also in the biological sciences whilst completing my PhD.

Still, nice swerve - what's Dr Mills subject please?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Off the top of my head: BSc (hons), MSc, both in the biological sciences. Currently a degree level lecturer, also in the biological sciences whilst completing my PhD.

Ouch...! That's gonna smart!

 

[existentialist]

Off the top of my head: BSc (hons), MSc, both in the biological sciences. Currently a degree level lecturer, also in the biological sciences whilst completing my PhD.

Still, nice swerve - what's Dr Mills subject please?

Good luck...

 

[Funky_monks]

"The gorilla is an undisputed herbivore".... ffs!

Am I going to have to post videos of Bonobo chimps hunting monkeys?

Edited to add:
Also explain:
The Inuit,
The Masai,
Any other non agrarian society you care to name,
Cave paintings clearly depicting hunting,
The advent of animal agriculture C3000 years ago,
The genesis of the human/dog relationship,
Etc
Etc

 

[Rivendelboy]

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some posts ago, (tl;dr cba). It's already been done, and done very well imo. I will repost the relevant material which you are free to watch or ignore.



...and debunked here...

Why would you listen to mic the vegan?