Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[Funky_monks]

For clarity, I'm in no way saying that humans can't survive on a largely plant based diet, given the right plants being available, and I really have no problem with the people who don't want to eat meat because they don't like killing.

But, the notion that humans did not evolve to have an omnivorous diet is batshit.
Yes, ommivory is a sliding scale. Some human populations ate much less meat than others. This doesn't mean humans aren't omnivores.

Name a pre-agricultural vegan society please?

 

[binka]

fwiw I think if you're trying to convince someone of your point of view then a YouTube video is a crap way to do it. If you post a link to an article there's a reasonable chance I might read it, or at least read the first paragraph to see how boring it is. If you post a YouTube video there's zero chance I'm watching any of it

 

[PaoloSanchez]

fwiw I think if you're trying to convince someone of your point of view then a YouTube video is a crap way to do it. If you post a link to an article there's a reasonable chance I might read it, or at least read the first paragraph to see how boring it is. If you post a YouTube video there's zero chance I'm watching any of it

Again everybody's different. You could say the same for posting in a forum or any other social media platform. They are all often dismissed as a waste of time.

It's not my job to try and convince anybody. I post things that make sense to me and that may be presented in a better and more succinct way that I am able to. People are free to choose whether they want to read/watch whatever I post. There's no compulsion involved, and if folks want to poke their fingers in their ears and say "la la la la didn't read/didn't watch" that's entirely up to them.

My preference is for respectful and meaningful engagement with people that are genuinely interested in the topic (even those that strongly disagree) and I'm not so interested in the folks who simply want to have a dig. So if you're not watching anything on youtube simply because it's on youtube that's entirely up to you.

As far as getting the vegan message out there, well it's happening anyway, almost in spite of the sometimes overwhelming opposition. There's a hell of a lot more awareness and interest in the topic now than there was 20 years ago when I started.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Why would you listen to mic the vegan?

Why not? He's a good egg and I like his content.

 

[binka]

Again everybody's different. You could say the same for posting in a forum or any other social media platform. They are all often dismissed as a waste of time.

It's not my job to try and convince anybody. I post things that make sense to me and that may be presented in a better and more succinct way that I am able to. People are free to choose whether they want to read/watch whatever I post. There's no compulsion involved, and if folks want to poke their fingers in their ears and say "la la la la didn't read/didn't watch" that's entirely up to them.

My preference is for respectful and meaningful engagement with people that are genuinely interested in the topic (even those that strongly disagree) and I'm not so interested in the folks who simply want to have a dig. So if you're not watching anything on youtube simply because it's on youtube that's entirely up to you.

As far as getting the vegan message out there, well it's happening anyway, almost in spite of the sometimes overwhelming opposition. There's a hell of a lot more awareness and interest in the topic now than there was 20 years ago when I started.

I was just politely pointing out if you want to convince people then just posting a video is unlikely to achieve much, I'm happy to spend 30 seconds briefly reading something but I'm not going to spend 10 minutes (or more) watching a YouTube video. But if you're not bothered then I'm not either so let's forget it

 

[PaoloSanchez]

I was just politely pointing out if you want to convince people then just posting a video is unlikely to achieve much, I'm happy to spend 30 seconds briefly reading something but I'm not going to spend 10 minutes (or more) watching a YouTube video.

Yes I got that the first time, and thanks for pointing that out. Like I said, I tend to post material that supports or illustrates a point I'm trying to make as part of the discussion. If you're not interested then that's perfectly ok. It's not for everybody and I'm not here to proselytise. If I think a youtube video summarizes a point I'm trying to make then I'll post it. Same for a link to an article or scientific paper. Folks are free to view or read whatever takes their fancy. Some people have an aversion to watching youtube videos and some prefer them. Whatever floats yer boat.

 

[Poot]

I can see why some would believe it to be "restrictive" but I don't believe it is at all, and imo, it's much more than "just a diet". It's an ethical/moral position.

Of course in a world that is +90% non vegan it can be a bit of a challenge to align your actions with your morals especially when you confronted by naysayers and dickheads who just want to have a dig but imo it's best to ignore them as much as possible.

Tbh you've kind of proven my point rather than disproving it. I think veganism puts people off eating less animal product. I find myself saying 'I'm not a vegan but...' in the same way as my mother in law says 'I'm not a feminist but...' which can't be good can it? If it's an ethical/moral position then what't the point in swapping to a veggie burger but still drinking milk with it? People shouldn't feel abashed about making that choice. It's a good choice.

Of course those who enter any conversation about eating less meat by shouting 'I'm having a nice juicy steak for my tea!1 Yummy!!' can fuck off, too. That goes without saying.

 

[joustmaster]

So, apparently, making veg "look like meat" (whatever that means) is a bit daft. Respectfully I disagree with that viewpoint.
Dr Milton Mills summed this up quite well I thought in his talk about the "Biology of disgust".

"The reason humans first skin, pluck and bleed, and then cut and shape animal flesh into smooth, rounded, hand-sized objects is so that it will mimic edible plant parts and thereby circumvent our innate disgust response!"

Most of the meat that is bought in supermarkets is several steps removed and disguised from it's true origins, which is rather convenient because otherwise I suspect that many would find it off putting. Bloody rotting animal flesh isn't really that appealing which is probably why the meat marketers give those images a wide berth.

I think it's ok to make plant based burgers, bacon, nuggets, milks etc. Why not?

Most would agree that wholefoods are on the whole healthier than processed, however I'm not sure why making a plant based burger taste similar to a meat based one should be an issue, or "daft".

This stuff reminds me of the bit in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas when they crash the DEA's drug conference and the expert is spouting all sorts of mad nonsense.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Tbh you've kind of proven my point rather than disproving it. I think veganism puts people off eating less animal product. I find myself saying 'I'm not a vegan but...' in the same way as my mother in law says 'I'm not a feminist but...' which can't be good can it?

I'm not sure what point I've proven tbh. Does veganism "put people off eating less animal product?". I'm not sure that is true but I'm quite happy to hear any evidence you have to the contrary, personal anecdotes aside. Most reports appear to indicate a steady increase in the amount of vegans, and although the numbers are still far too low imo, there's been an consistent and observable upward trend. Of course there are going to be folks like Piers Morgan and his ilk that go out of their way to dismiss and denegrate, and you may notice some of the posters in here doing the same thing. I believe it's the "argument from incredulity" fallacy. They just don't like it and rather than trying to understand end engage, they prefer to mock and dismiss.

If it's an ethical/moral position then what't the point in swapping to a veggie burger but still drinking milk with it? People shouldn't feel abashed about making that choice. It's a good choice.

I'm not sure what you're saying here tbh. Who exactly is having a veggie burger and washing it down with cows milk? Whoever it is I doubt if they'd be thought of as being vegan. Probably vegetarian/flexitarian/reducitarian (or perhaps Sanitarian).

Indeed it is a moral/ethical position and folks who adopt that position would not regard drinking cows milk to be aligned with their moral/ethical position.

Of course those who enter any conversation about eating less meat by shouting 'I'm having a nice juicy steak for my tea!1 Yummy!!' can fuck off, too. That goes without saying.

Quite often it's the old "BACON!". I try to give folks a chance to properly engage, but if they simply want to be dismissive jerks, I'll just blank them continue on my merry way.

 

[Spymaster]

I was about to ask what field of study Dr Milton was in.
We bleed animals to stop the meat spoiling.
We pluck them because feathers are inedible, as is the skin of larger animals (where skin is edible, we tend to leave it on see: birds). Both feathers and skins are very useful made into other things, which is probably why we started doing it.
What cuts of an animal look like plants?
Smaller animals are often cooked whole (Rabbits, most birds) and look very much like an animal.
Does a leg of lamb look like anything else? A shoulder of pork?
Even highly trimmed cuts look like meat, and are the shape they are because that's the shape they grow in.....

Dr Milton is a right fucking bellend by the sound of it.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm not sure if his field of study is relevant tbh

 

[Spymaster]

The main theme behind what he was saying is that in order for many of us to eat meat and not be disgusted by it we have to heavily modify it by giving it more plant like qualities.

 

[Funky_monks]

A straw poll of the several vegans in my department concluded that Dr Milton is bonkers.

Anthropologists were mildly upset that he'd apparently utterly disregarded their entire field of study...

 

[Spymaster]

What's plant-like about any of the cuts of meat I mentioned please?
Cutting meat into smaller portions is a direct response to a change in lifestyle- people have less time to cook now. Go back barely a generation and legs of lamb, belly, chops with the rib on, shoulders of lamb/mutton/pork, rib of beef, whole roast poultry, trotters, offal, cow heel etc etc was not unusual.

Its utter bollocks of the highest order.

Cooking meat doesn't make it plant-like either, but what it does do is make it much safer to eat, so presumably, preferring it like that confers a significant evolutionary advantage.

His field of study is incredibly relevant, because he's clearly no idea what he's talking about, so if his field of study is unrelated to biology/ecology/anthropology etc he isn't a total moron.

This is PaoloSanchez you're arguing with here. He'll stick you on ignore when he can't answer your questions.

 

[Spymaster]

Right, ok. I don't think I'll be bothering to reply to your future posts ...

Well there's a surprise!

 

[Spymaster]

So you dismissed Dr Mills stuff as "utter drivel" and that he is a loon without actually listening to what he had to say and without any citations of your own...and what are your credentials...sir?

Off the top of my head: BSc (hons), MSc, both in the biological sciences. Currently a degree level lecturer, also in the biological sciences whilst completing my PhD.

Bye bye, PaoloSanchez !

 

[joustmaster]

It's interesting isn't it?
This mad doctor that was posted up thread, and Pablo posting almost blindly religious about him, is exactly what the thread title is about.

After a quick google he's an outpatient doctor at a hospital and not related to this stuff at all.
His stuff hasn't been picked up and published in a journal.
And he has some peta connection.

So yes. This is a good example of a crackers vegan making me feel distanced from the idea of vegaism.

 

[Poot]

I'm not sure what you're saying here tbh. Who exactly is having a veggie burger and washing it down with cows milk? Whoever it is I doubt if they'd be thought of as being vegan. Probably vegetarian/flexitarian/reducitarian (or perhaps Sanitarian).[/QUOTE

Why do they have to *be* anything? Why can't they just consume less animal products? That's what i am saying. It doesnt have to be a special club!

 

[Saul Goodman]

As far as getting the vegan message out there, well it's happening anyway, almost in spite of the sometimes overwhelming opposition. There's a hell of a lot more awareness and interest in the topic now than there was 20 years ago when I started.

I don't believe anyone thinks this is a bad thing. I think it's great that people are eating less meat, and if some give it up completely, all the better, as it offsets the meat footprint for those of us who have no intention of giving it up. It's a win win situation, and if people are, as you say, giving up meat, despite (some) vegans doing their utmost to alienate these people, then we're surely heading in the right direction.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What's plant-like about any of the cuts of meat I mentioned please?
Cutting meat into smaller portions is a direct response to a change in lifestyle- people have less time to cook now. Go back barely a generation and legs of lamb, belly, chops with the rib on, shoulders of lamb/mutton/pork, rib of beef, whole roast poultry, trotters, offal, cow heel etc etc was not unusual.

Its utter bollocks of the highest order.

Cooking meat doesn't make it plant-like either, but what it does do is make it much safer to eat, so presumably, preferring it like that confers a significant evolutionary advantage.

His field of study is incredibly relevant, because he's clearly no idea what he's talking about, so if his field of study is unrelated to biology/ecology/anthropology etc he isn't a total moron.

Had trotters a couple of months ago. Fucking lovely.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Had trotters a couple of months ago. Fucking lovely.

Were they disguised as broccoli?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Tbh you've kind of proven my point rather than disproving it. I think veganism puts people off eating less animal product. I find myself saying 'I'm not a vegan but...' in the same way as my mother in law says 'I'm not a feminist but...' which can't be good can it? If it's an ethical/moral position then what't the point in swapping to a veggie burger but still drinking milk with it? People shouldn't feel abashed about making that choice. It's a good choice.

Of course those who enter any conversation about eating less meat by shouting 'I'm having a nice juicy steak for my tea!1 Yummy!!' can fuck off, too. That goes without saying.

I kind of agree, which makes me feel sad, as you're a wrong-un who thinks that bacon is made from a pig's leg.

 

[Poot]

I kind of agree, which makes me feel sad, as you're a wrong-un who thinks that bacon is made from a pig's leg.

I know it's not its leg really. But you lose arguments if you admit to using artistic license.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why do they have to *be* anything? Why can't they just consume less animal products? That's what i am saying. It doesnt have to be a special club!

Precisely. I still eat meat, but I don't eat much of it. I try to eat "local" veg and fruit, as opposed to runner beans grown in Kenya, or potatoes grown in Poland.
It should be about good sense, and you don't NEED a 36oz steak to enjoy a steak. Personally, I like to leave some room for the fried spuds and mushrooms.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I know it's not its leg really. But you lose arguments if you admit to using artistic license.

I mentioned it because it made me laugh. I heard this voice (my Dad) in my head saying "you don't waste the leg on bacon! in an incredulous manner. He worked as a butcher for about a decade, and was always perturbed when people said stupid things about meat, like the woman who asked for no kidney in her steak and kidney.

 

[Funky_monks]

Early man preparing to suppress his disgust reaction and cut a deer into florets...

 

[Proper Tidy]

Early man preparing to suppress his disgust reaction and cut a deer into florets...View attachment 182390

I think he's playing the harp and the deer has just stopped to listen tbh, open to interpretation at the least

 

[Proper Tidy]

Impressive balancing on that branch too

 

[PaoloSanchez]

It's interesting isn't it?
This mad doctor that was posted up thread, and Pablo posting almost blindly religious about him, is exactly what the thread title is about.

Indeed, it's very interesting. I'm not sure I'd agree with the "blindly religious" bit though. In my opinion he made some very interesting points some of which make sense to me. It would appear that some in here disagree but that's ok. Would have been nice to see a well thought out critique of the points he made rather than straight up ad-hom dismissals, but I guess we can't have everything we want, eh?

After a quick google he's an outpatient doctor at a hospital and not related to this stuff at all.
His stuff hasn't been picked up and published in a journal.
And he has some peta connection.

Not exactly in depth research there, but I guess it's a start. As for medical qualifications "not related to this stuff at all", well it kinda is. He most likely does know a thing or two about the human anatomy. His presentation crossed multiple disciplines and imo, the accuracy (or lack thereof) of the points he raised in his talk are far more relevant than his credentials. Even the fella in here who claims to be on his way to a PHD and is allegedly credentialed up to his eyeballs is unable to muster a decent quality referenced rebuttal on any of Dr Mills points so far, almost completely devoid of facts and mostly cries of "utter bollocks" and "me and my mates say he's f'kin nuts...so there".

...and on that point, what qualifications do you have to be able to contest Dr Mills' work?

So yes. This is a good example of a crackers vegan making me feel distanced from the idea of vegaism.

Okaaaay. Some people just need an excuse, and any excuse will do. Sensible balanced and rational people will take their time to look at the evidence before jumping to a conclusion. Claiming that the behaviour of a particularly individual is what is stopping people considering veganism is just a bit of a lazy cop out imo.

 

[PaoloSanchez]

Why do they have to *be* anything? Why can't they just consume less animal products? That's what i am saying. It doesnt have to be a special club!

So what's wrong with people organising themselves into groups based on a common interest? It's a perfectly normal thing to do isn't it?

The foundation of veganism is based on not harming animals unnecessarily wherever possible. There are some principles that are absolutist in their nature, like for example, taking a position on child abuse or wife beating. Most rational and morraly balanced people would want to see those disgusting behaviours eliminated and wouldn't just be calling for a mere reduction..."lets have a rape free Monday". In my opinion the principles of veganism are similarly absolutist, so eating less meat doesn't really cut it from an ethical perspective, in the same way that a campaign against violence to women wouldn't have members who wanted to allow wife beatings only at the weekend.

I think part of the confusion stems from the fact that many people (including many vegans) believe that veganism is all about diet and that simply eating "vegan food" is good enough and that makes one a vegan. I shall repeat, it is an ethical/moral position, and the diet is just one of the ways of putting that position into practice.