Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[gentlegreen]

I struggle to imagine walking into my local Aldi and bypassing all the lovely fruit and veggies and buying only dead animals.
And weekend mornings without toast and coffee ?
And to think I get accused of having a restrictive diet ...

 

[8ball]

I struggle to imagine walking into my local Aldi and bypassing all the lovely fruit and veggies and buying only dead animals.
And weekend mornings without toast and coffee ?
And to think I get accused of having a restrictive diet ...

I listened to a debate that Jordan Peterson was in and he was asked about his all-meat diet - he said he wouldn't wish it on anyone.

 

[Athos]

I'm not talking about some kids diet.

I'm simply saying you are wrong in that :


It can be. Eating animals can provide you with 100% of the nutrition that you need.

So you keep asserting. I'm yet to see the evidence.

 

[joustmaster]

So you keep asserting. I'm yet to see the evidence.

What can't you get from eating animal?

 

[Poot]

What can't you get from eating animal?

Fibre.

 

[8ball]

Fibre.

Not an essential nutrient.

 

[joustmaster]

Fibre.

"Fibre has never been shown to be an essential component of the human diet. Indeed there have been societies such as the Inuit and Mongolians that ate only small infrequent amounts of plants, and they were not unhealthy."

 

[8ball]

"Fibre has never been shown to be an essential component of the human diet. Indeed there have been societies such as the Inuit and Mongolians that ate only small infrequent amounts of plants, and they were not unhealthy."

A mate of mine went to Mongolia for his honeymoon. At one point after another all meat dish (he had recently lapsed from vegetarianism) he asked his host "don't you ever eat any vegetables?" and was told "sure we do. the animals eat the vegetables, and we eat the animals".

 

[Poot]

More evidence that fibre cuts bowel cancer risk

I mean it's your bum, and your conscience, and when I find myself googling Inuit Bowel Cancer Statistics I probably ought to go out and enjoy the sunshine...

 

[Rivendelboy]

B12 is super-cheap.

It's free with every steak

 

[8ball]

More evidence that fibre cuts bowel cancer risk

I mean it's your bum, and your conscience, and when I find myself googling Inuit Bowel Cancer Statistics I probably ought to go out and enjoy the sunshine...

I'm mostly surprised that that is such a weak result from such a significant meta-analysis.
But yeah, nice to have fibre in your diet, I do believe this is the consensus.

If you're picking "nice to have" nutrients etc. it's very easy to pick holes in a vegan diet too, though.

 

[joustmaster]

More evidence that fibre cuts bowel cancer risk

I mean it's your bum, and your conscience, and when I find myself googling Inuit Bowel Cancer Statistics I probably ought to go out and enjoy the sunshine...

I'm not eating a carnivore diet. It sounds awful.

I'm just saying you can have a balanced diet whilst doing so.

 

[gentlegreen]

It's free with every steak

What if you love eating plants and have no appetite for steak ?
I would struggle to integrate it into my diet - it would displace other things I need.
I would miss my massive morning dump too.

 

[8ball]

What if you love eating plants and have no appetite for steak ?
I would struggle to integrate it into my diet - it would displace other things I need.
I would miss my massive morning dump too.

If I was a vegan I think I'd supplement with a regular vegan vitamin supplement*, some extra D3 and creatine, carnosine, l-carnitine and DHA. Plus some extra haem iron if I was female.**

* - one with biotin in it - they don't all have it - or maybe just eat lots of almonds and mushrooms..
** - less likely to happen than becoming a vegan, marginally

 

[Rivendelboy]

More evidence that fibre cuts bowel cancer risk

I mean it's your bum, and your conscience, and when I find myself googling Inuit Bowel Cancer Statistics I probably ought to go out and enjoy the sunshine...

What's the actual risk? If you're not at risk from bowel cancer than cutting it isn't much of an issue.

Also what is meant by 'fibre'. I can get fibre from all sorts of food, some of which are shit and others less so.

is the epidemiological? It just says "associated with", not directly causal. So for instance if you're eating more fibre, and thus reducing yoru risk, is that because you're eating less shit, or more fibre?

 

[Rivendelboy]

What if you love eating plants and have no appetite for steak ?
I would struggle to integrate it into my diet - it would displace other things I need.
I would miss my massive morning dump too.

Well you should eat waht you enjoy, if you dont' enjoy meat don't eat it!

However, regardless your body needs b12. That's non-negotiable. Without it you die

 

[8ball]

If you're not at risk from bowel cancer than cutting it isn't much of an issue.

How are you determining who is "at risk"?

 

[Rivendelboy]

How are you determining who is "at risk"?

I'm talking about relative risk vs absolute risk. For example it's impressive to read "X cuts chance of Big Cancers by 50%!"

But if your absolute risk of Big Cancers is 2%, because of your diet for example, then your risk of Big Cancers is now...1%!

Factor in the benefits or consequences of introducing X into your life or diet and maybe that's not worth it.

 

[Rivendelboy]

I was often hungry as a child. Honestly, my parents would count slices of bread so you were in trouble if you nicked any. Shoplifting was my only source of frivolities such as sweets of biscuits. Apart from Brussel sprouts, there really isn't much I would refuse to eat. I can't help seeing a lot of foodie faffing as a bit...decadent...but have an awfully sweet tooth. Horses for courses but imo, undue emphasis on any food (other than nutritional calorific needs for survival) can lead to an emotionally unbalanced outlook.

Only if a) you're eating unhealthily and b) you live in a society that finds your diet to be wildly unusual.

 

[Rivendelboy]

I listened to a debate that Jordan Peterson was in and he was asked about his all-meat diet - he said he wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I'm almost entirely certain he's only in it for the money. Like everything that shitbag is involved in. It's a poipular diet amongst the millenial wankers he panders to. The people that use the term "soy boy" as a genuine insult and think eating meat is correct and masculine etc. I hate that crap, and I hate him too. Fucking rich bastard

 

[8ball]

I'm talking about relative risk vs absolute risk. For example it's impressive to read "X cuts chance of Big Cancers by 50%!"

But if your absolute risk of Big Cancers is 2%, because of your diet for example, then your risk of Big Cancers is now...1%!

Factor in the benefits or consequences of introducing X into your life or diet and maybe that's not worth it.

Always a good way of thinking about the numbers.

To illustrate - I think the chance of getting bowel cancer over a lifetime is very close to 1%

So, we have the following life choices:

i) Fairly normal diet - no bacon or processed meats or barbecues - 1% risk
ii) *Lots* of bran and whole grains - no bacon or processed meats or barbecues - 0.8% risk
iii) Mmmm... bacon and barbecues... 2% risk (quoted in papers as "100% increase in risk")

So now we are balancing the happiness of bacon and barbecues against a 1 in 100 *increase* in chance of getting an illness that has a pretty high cure rate (which is increasing). If you like bacon and barbecues it's looking like a good bet seeing how you have to die of something.

 

[Poot]

What's the actual risk? If you're not at risk from bowel cancer than cutting it isn't much of an issue.

Also what is meant by 'fibre'. I can get fibre from all sorts of food, some of which are shit and others less so.

is the epidemiological? It just says "associated with", not directly causal. So for instance if you're eating more fibre, and thus reducing yoru risk, is that because you're eating less shit, or more fibre?

Dietary fiber - Wikipedia

It's important to take in food that the body can't break down to keep bowel function strong and speed up metabolism. Yes it's causal. Look, I'm not a scientist so I can only tell you that in my lived experience I feel a lot better with a very high fibre diet. And whilst other women of my age battle hair loss and dull skin and brittle nails, I look very well. And I feel great and full of energy. But as soon as I start with the bread and cheese and the pizza and pasta and shit like that, instead of the high fibre and almost entirely plant-based diet, it all goes wrong.

 

[8ball]

...I feel great and full of energy. But as soon as I start with the bread and cheese and the pizza and pasta and shit like that, instead of the high fibre and almost entirely plant-based diet, it all goes wrong.

Those white refined carbs do me in too.

 

[Rivendelboy]

Always a good way of thinking about the numbers.

To illustrate - I think the chance of getting bowel cancer over a lifetime is very close to 1%

So, we have the following life choices:

i) Fairly normal diet - no bacon or processed meats or barbecues - 1% risk
ii) *Lots* of bran and whole grains - no bacon or processed meats or barbecues - 0.8% risk
iii) Mmmm... bacon and barbecues... 2% risk (quoted in papers as "100% increase in risk")

So now we are balancing the happiness of bacon and barbecues against a 1 in 100 *increase* in chance of getting an illness that has a pretty high cure rate (which is increasing). If you like bacon and barbecues it's looking like good bet seeing how you have to die of something.

It's not just "the happiness of bacon" it's the neutritional benefits of what you're eating.
Likewise adding bran and whole grains doesn't necessarily mean goodness. Those things contain more than just fibre. Grains aren't, imo, healthy.

That's what I mean by factoring in nutritional considerations.

And that assumes that eating bacon gives you arse cancer. The evidence for that is wholly suspect.

Dietary fiber - Wikipedia

It's important to take in food that the body can't break down to keep bowel function strong and speed up metabolism. Yes it's causal. Look, I'm not a scientist so I can only tell you that in my lived experience I feel a lot better with a very high fibre diet. And whilst other women of my age battle hair loss and dull skin and brittle nails, I look very well. And I feel great and full of energy. But as soon as I start with the bread and cheese and the pizza and pasta and shit like that, instead of the high fibre and almost entirely plant-based diet, it all goes wrong.

Is it important? For some perhaps. Others seem to manage just fine. In the end does it really make sense to fill your body with stuff it can't digest? That's all fibre is. There may be some beenfits in terms of short term fatty acids and good bacteria, I'm uncertain myself.

Bread is almost entirely shit to eat. It wont' be the cheese (though it can constipate due to casein/lactose apparently). But I felt the same for years. It made me fat and gave me blood sugar problems. So i cut it out. I used to love bread. Grain is terrible.

There was a study, very small cohort unfortuantely, that found reducing fibre entirely was correlated with healthy bowel movements and relief from constipation

 

[Athos]

What can't you get from eating animal?

I tell you what, you link me to a decent scientific study that supports your assertion, and we'll start from there.

 

[gentlegreen]

There was a study, very small cohort unfortuantely, that found reducing fibre entirely was correlated with healthy bowel movements and relief from constipation

This weirdo ?



Konstantin Monastyrsky

To be compared with Ugandans and bowel and heart health and some of the highest fibre consumption on the planet.

 

[8ball]

I tell you what, you link me to a decent scientific study that supports your assertion, and we'll start from there.

What is the precise claim you are disputing here? That you can get all the nutrition you need from animal foods / meat?

 

[Athos]

What is the precise claim you are disputing here? That you can get all the nutrition you need from animal foods / meat?

Yes. But, that depends in part what you mean by 'need', and how long you live in what state. Obviously, you can get all you 'need' from water, on one understanding.

 

[Rivendelboy]

This weirdo ?

View attachment 177578

Konstantin Monastyrsky

To be compared with Ugandans and bowel and heart health and some of the highest fibre consumption on the planet.

Here's the study: Stopping or reducing dietary fiber intake reduces constipation and its associated symptoms

 

[Rivendelboy]

Yes. But, that depends in part what you mean by 'need', and how long you live in what state. Obviously, you can get all you 'need' from water, on one understanding.

You don't need a study to tell you, you can just look up what's in meat.