Do angry vegans turn you against going vegan?

[keybored]

Spoiler: Chat at the end

But I have a real problem with eating meat...
...I looked in the supermarket and all the meat, the dead flesh, is made to look as un animal like as possible...
...I find that appalling...I remember I did a show once on a radio station and the whole program was taken up with complaints, people had been complaining about a butchers shop and the butchers shop had whole animals hanging in the window like they used to, and they complained that it was on route for a lot of children to go to school and they saw these dead animals hanging in the window and I thought...this is excellent...this is what the kids need if you're going to eat meat you need to know that an animal gave its life.

And why don't funeral parlours have human corpses displayed in their windows? Why are they trying to hide what their industry is really about, eh?

 

[ddraig]

Oh my days, he’s at it again! I do like to wake up to a laugh though.

ddraig , what point do you think you’re making by suggesting you get all Jack The Ripper on people’s pets?

that my interests as a human trump the interests of an animal to live

Is owning pets ok? Interesting

I would love to answer your question but i've no idea how you've inferring the right to breach my personal property (which in this example would include my personal livestock/pets) from my answer. Your question implied there are good reasons to overrule animal rights from my perspective, can you give me a good reason why you should need to harm my cat/dog/hamster? I don't consider your personal bloodliust to be satisfactory, but you'd be welcome to try and bust into my home. If you did you'd be met with considerable force

Animals die for food throughout nature, if less of them did so that would mean predator specices would be suffering. Most predator hunts fail anyway, so this is already not a good thing from their perspective

I don't consider yours to be either

Of all the things I never thought I'd see on Urban, ddraig channeling cat killer @franceslengel is pretty high up on the list

that thieving skanky twisted cunt actually did it though and revelled in it

i take human interest to mean something substantive, like curing a disease or optimal nutrition.

Not personal preference - killing or torturing an animal for pleasure. I don't think that qualifies since that could be applied simply between our own species and is thus merely emotional preference.

what do you think meat eating is?

 

[ddraig]

Not sure how else one could define optimal other than in terms of nutrition and health. That's why i say animal food, for example organ meats, are optimal, because they are loaded with nutrition and lacking in a lot of stuff that isn't healthy.

do you drink or smoke? exercise regularly and properly? never cross the road unless the green man is on? do you always go for the most organic meats from animals that smiled all their lives? do you live in an unpolluted area or breathe from oxygen tanks?
if not why not? doing these would surely be optimal

 

[NoXion]

And why don't funeral parlours have human corpses displayed in their windows? Why are they trying to hide what their industry is really about, eh?

It's also blatantly untrue. Now we don't have a traditional farmer's market here in my own, but my local Tesco's, as well as the various independent supermarkets catering for this town's various different ethnic communities, all have sections where they sell freshly butchered meat and and fish. I don't know about the rest of you, but I find pretty easy to tell that the lumps of organic matter they are selling once came from living animals.

If people who eat meat are complaining about butchers hanging up animal carcasses, then those people should be found and taken on a day trip to the nearest abattoir, because they clearly need to be clued in about what the fuck their food is made of.

 

[andysays]

do you drink or smoke? exercise regularly and properly? never cross the road unless the green man is on? do you always go for the most organic meats from animals that smiled all their lives? do you live in an unpolluted area or breathe from oxygen tanks?
if not why not? doing these would surely be optimal

Not content with emulating your old chum FL, you're now doing your very own bit of hypocrisy hunting. Sounds legit...

 

[Horus Snacks]

that my interests as a human trump the interests of an animal to live

I don't consider yours to be either


what do you think meat eating is?

Of course you don't, we wouldn't be having this conversation otherwise. The issue is whether you have a good argument and evidence for your positoin and i've not seen that from the vegan side. I have seen a lot of abuse however.

I think eating meat is the optimal diet for a human being and part of the natural process of life on earth, the only difference is that we're pretty good at it and have mechanised it

 

[Horus Snacks]

do you drink or smoke? exercise regularly and properly? never cross the road unless the green man is on? do you always go for the most organic meats from animals that smiled all their lives? do you live in an unpolluted area or breathe from oxygen tanks?
if not why not? doing these would surely be optimal

no, no, yes...define properly please.

I cross roads all the time, like the chickens i eat.

Not entirely sure what your argument is. Crossing roads is inherently risky but necessary. Breathing is an autonomic response i have no control over

 

[ddraig]

Not content with emulating your old chum FL, you're now doing your very own bit of hypocrisy hunting. Sounds legit...

you're such a creep bandwagon jumping shit poster still

 

[ddraig]

Of course you don't, we wouldn't be having this conversation otherwise. The issue is whether you have a good argument and evidence for your positoin and i've not seen that from the vegan side. I have seen a lot of abuse however.

I think eating meat is the optimal diet for a human being and part of the natural process of life on earth, the only difference is that we're pretty good at it and have mechanised it

what abuse? and if you're not going to address anything put to you and just dish out your view as gospel then it's pointless

 

[NoXion]

Of course you don't, we wouldn't be having this conversation otherwise. The issue is whether you have a good argument and evidence for your positoin and i've not seen that from the vegan side. I have seen a lot of abuse however.

I think eating meat is the optimal diet for a human being and part of the natural process of life on earth, the only difference is that we're pretty good at it and have mechanised it

I don't think there is such a thing as "the" optimal diet for a human being, since human beings vary in their habits and requirements.

 

[8ball]

It's also blatantly untrue. Now we don't have a traditional farmer's market here in my own, but my local Tesco's, as well as the various independent supermarkets catering for this town's various different ethnic communities, all have sections where they sell freshly butchered meat and and fish. I don't know about the rest of you, but I find pretty easy to tell that the lumps of organic matter they are selling once came from living animals.

There is a funny kind of selective squeamishness that I've noticed, though.
My nephew was tucking into his Sunday roast and wondered what an odd little structure was, so I explained that it was a tricuspid venous valve which led to the question what exactly was it for and before I could begin explaining (he loves science) the adults in the family were aghast and stopped me, clearly agreeing that I had overstepped some kind of mark.

I can be a bit iffy with social conventions but it struck me as interesting.

 

[8ball]

I don't think there is such a thing as "the" optimal diet for a human being, since human beings vary in their habits and requirements.

Should be pointed out that vegans (on this thread anyway), often dispute that variance in optimal requirements exists.

 

[ddraig]

There is a funny kind of selective squeamishness that I've noticed, though.
My nephew was tucking into his Sunday roast and wondered what an odd little structure was, so I explained that it was a tricuspid venous valve which led to the question what exactly was it for and before I could begin explaining (he loves science) the adults in the family were aghast and stopped me, clearly agreeing that I had overstepped some kind of mark.

I can be a bit iffy with social conventions but it struck me as interesting.

what's wrong with the truth eh!

 

[Horus Snacks]

what abuse? and if you're not going to address anything put to you and just dish out your view as gospel then it's pointless

I've addressed EVERYTHING that's been put to me. To a fault. If you think otherwise you are free to ask me anything. I don't shy away from questions.

But don't pretend there's been no abuse when I'm called a cunt for a position on eating carbs.

 

[ddraig]

I've addressed EVERYTHING that's been put to me. To a fault. If you think otherwise you are free to ask me anything. I don't shy away from questions.

But don't pretend there's been no abuse when I'm called a cunt for a position on eating carbs.

who called you a cunt? which post?

 

[NoXion]

There is a funny kind of selective squeamishness that I've noticed, though.
My nephew was tucking into his Sunday roast and wondered what an odd little structure was, so I explained that it was a tricuspid venous valve which led to the question what exactly was it for and before I could begin explaining (he loves science) the adults in the family were aghast and stopped me, clearly agreeing that I had overstepped some kind of mark.

I can be a bit iffy with social conventions but it struck me as interesting.

That might explain some things. In my family that would be treated as a learning opportunity.

 

[Spymaster]

that my interests as a human trump the interests of an animal to live

Do you really think this kind of reductio argument does you any favours? You’re coming across as a fucking banana.

Keep it up though!

 

[8ball]

what abuse? and if you're not going to address anything put to you and just dish out your view as gospel then it's pointless

It's just an opinion that you disagree with. Under certain conditions meat is going to be optimal depending on what is around, but I don't think we live under those conditions here and now, generally speaking.

 

[Horus Snacks]

who called you a cunt? which post?

This is what you want to focus on now? Given up on the arguments against meat you want to try and catch me out. this just shows you to be a bad faith operator

 

[8ball]

who called you a cunt? which post?

Well, I got called a cunt for trying to bring up a point about the demographics and life cycle of food trends.
This isn't really a thread for the thin-skinned.

 

[ddraig]

This is what you want to focus on now? Given up on the arguments against meat you want to try and catch me out. this just shows you to be a bad faith operator

it's to show that you're lying bascially
don't lie or say shit you can't back up and you'll be fine
you're the bad faith operator here

 

[andysays]

you're such a creep bandwagon jumping shit poster still

Whereas you are clearly winning support for veganism with every post you make.

Are you actually sponsored by the BMPA by any chance?

 

[Horus Snacks]

it's to show that you're lying bascially
don't lie or say shit you can't back up and you'll be fine
you're the bad faith operator here

Why don't you stick to your main act and talk about how I'm wrong about meat because it seems like you've just given up.

 

[8ball]

it's to show that you're lying bascially
don't lie or say shit you can't back up and you'll be fine
you're the bad faith operator here

Possible mis-remembering, I'd say. The post that I think Horus is referring to seems at least partially related to a spat over the definition of 'carbohydrate'.

A brief search shows this to be a very 'cunty' thread. On spec, it does seem more instances are aimed at vegans than the other way round. Though with quite a few confusing instances and one outlier spraying the word liberally around without seeming preference as to the target's tribal affiliation.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Things I reckon Jeff Robinson and I would agree on:

Lots of animals other than humans are sentient, have a point of view, a mind, emotions, emotional attachment, the capacity to feel pleasure and pain. How wide this sentience spreads is a tricky question: sheep, certainly; snakes, probably; frogs, possibly; nematode worms, probably not. Also, it is probably possible for a form of awareness to be present without a unified sense of self: this may well be the case with frogs. This isn't well understood, but the important point here would be that we both agree that the majority of farm animals are sentient beings capable of suffering.

We also agree that sometimes there is a need for us to kill other sentient beings, and I can add here that I don't approve of the idea of killing other animals without a good reason to do so (hence dealing with ddraig's pet-bashing objection). But this takes us to the sticking point: what constitutes a good reason?

I'm conflicted over animal experimentation, which involves not merely killing animals but also intentionally inflicting suffering on them. Both of my siblings would be long dead without a treatment developed by testing on sentient animals. In some ways, I can see using animals for testing as more justifiable than using them for meat.

Over meat and dairy, I'm less conflicted in the sense that I do see 'for food' as a decent reason for killing animals. Here we meet a point of sharp disagreement. I acknowledge the suffering that modern farming causes, and would like to see it reformed, but I don't in principle have a problem with keeping animals for food if the animals are kept well during their lives, something that I probably see as more possible to do than Jeff does.

While I agree with Jeff over the horrific nature of many slaughter practices, I don't have a sticking point with the actual act of killing per se: in theory at least, a bolt to the brain should knock out consciousness before the brain has even had the time to experience any suffering. This particular animal is only alive in the first place because it is going to be killed. I can see how that may sound harsh. I'm not demanding that others agree.

I don't expect to change opinions here, but we can reach a point where we understand each other's position at least, where we are not simply talking past one another.

 

[ddraig]

BRAINWASHING on the streets of Cardiff

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Just had some pretty awesome vegan mushroom tattie and neep pie! Who knew mashed tatties and neeps with olive oil could be so tasty? Mmmmm

 

[Horus Snacks]

BRAINWASHING on the streets of Cardiff

Indeed. Cutesy balloon animals anthropomorphising them is hardly objective.

Did these people/you offer alternatives to the carnists you/they spoke to, or just accuse them of being murderers in front of their kids

 

[ddraig]

Indeed. Cutesy balloon animals anthropomorphising them is hardly objective.

Did these people/you offer alternatives to the carnists you/they spoke to, or just accuse them of being murderers in front of their kids

you don't think animals are cute irl then? awwww
objective, get to fuck, what met marketing is objective? how is not telling kids the truth objective?
why do you assume people were accused of being murderers? doubt that would have gone down too well and what went on looks quite effective on it's own

 

[Horus Snacks]

I think cute is a product of socialisation and irrelevant to the arguments for or against meat.

So how about the second question I asked. Did they give out practical information or just guilt trip kids?