Conspiraloon 9/11- 7/7 Truther outed as Holocaust denier

[ViolentPanda]

When the Ukrainian famine is raised by Nazi apologists in debating circles it's usually pooh-poohed as the moral equivalency fallacy it so clearly is.

Yup.
I've had that one directed at me a few times, and have had to refer the "debater" to the historical record of the swathe the Nazis themselves cut through the Ukrainian population (followed, of course, by paranoid Uncle Kolya's goon squads). There is no moral equivalency, just the sad fact that authoritarian dictatorships spend lives freely.

 

[EddyBlack]

Yup.
I've had that one directed at me a few times, and have had to refer the "debater" to the historical record of the swathe the Nazis themselves cut through the Ukrainian population (followed, of course, by paranoid Uncle Kolya's goon squads). There is no moral equivalency, just the sad fact that authoritarian dictatorships spend lives freely.

And how would a good communist revolution deal with the class enemies and enemies of the revolution?

 

[Badger Kitten]

This is exactly where people like this bloke, who is genuinely mad enough to think denying the holocaust has no anti-semitic or racist implications come in. They're useful (or more accurately, some people who really are anti-semitic etc, think they'll be useful) in normalising the denial discourse. Of course, the fact they're already marginalised to seeking influence with 911 freaks says all we need to know.

Kollerstrom will weasel his way out of anti-semitism charges by pointing out that he is pro-the Semetic peoples ( such as Palestinians). However, having just read an essay of his, he is 100% anti Jewish - anti-Israel - anti-Israeli- and believes that Zionists are running the world.

Now, like many people, I am frequently appalled and horrified by some of the actions of the Israeli Government. I don't need to list them. It is infuriating to see charges of anti-semitism thrown about when criticising the brutal repression of Palestinians and the lack of engagement with the peace process, as the violence & mistrust on both sides continues to spiral

But Nick Kollerstrom isn't criticising Israeli policy. No, he is into into a specific conspiracy theory which is specifically about JEWS. American Jews, rich Jews, Israeli Jews, European Jews, Jews who work in politics, media, banking, writing, publishing....

Jews. It's all about Jews.
They are, he says, 'the enemy within'.

Check for yourself.

*ww.911action.org/911-and-zion/

 

[cesare]

And how would a good communist revolution deal with the class enemies and enemies of the revolution?

Go and ask one

 

[fela fan]

Here comes a fela derail - any passing mods?

And in any case, after 35 pages of witchhunt, mine is a derail?

Call in the ruling class man. That'll sort out those with the wrong ideas and opinions.

 

[butchersapron]

And how would a good communist revolution deal with the class enemies and enemies of the revolution?

Eddy - ask some people who deny that Stalin did naughty things. And don't ask people who don't deny it why they want to it to happen again.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh come on, he's describing me not himself!

I know.

*shakes head at VP's obtuseness*

(Obtusiveness? Obtusivity? I hate english)

Obtuseness is good.

 

[pk]

Jews. It's all about Jews.
They are, he says, 'the enemy within'.

Check for yourself.

*ww.911action.org/911-and-zion/

Has this been forwarded to UCL's Hebrew & Jewish department yet?

 

[ViolentPanda]

So easily satisfied.

Who said I was "satisfied", you schmendrick?

Why, the omniscient fela fan, that's who!

 

[EddyBlack]

Eddy - ask some people who deny that Stalin did naughty things. And don't ask people who don't deny it why they want to it to happen again.

Ok, but I do not accept that there is no moral equivalency. And I think that the question is an interesting one whether one denies Stalin's, and other regimes actions or not. If you still seek a communist revolution, what to do with these enemies?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Mad as a hatter you are.

Bit of an insult, that.

















To Hatters, like.

 

[butchersapron]

Can anyone give any examples of PC, anti-racist holocaust denial btw? Is NK the first?

 

[Badger Kitten]

And in any case, after 35 pages of witchhunt, mine is a derail?

Call in the ruling class man. That'll sort out those with the wrong ideas and opinions.

Are you suggesting deliberately lying about the fact that millions of people were industrially exterminated isn't a wrong idea or opinion? Are you suggesting it is a right opinion?

Nick Kollerstrom, by the way, published his articles freely and continues to do so.
We are freely discussing what he has freely disseminated. He chose to put it out there, along with his views on Jews - what, and we can't mention it? Or discuss it?

Witch hunt?
Piss off.

 

[Wilf]

Still think people are being a tad po faced about Kollerstrom's departure from this notion of pure, referenced social science. We all know that academia contains as many values and agendas as any other walk of life. Similarly the 'using his PhD' thing. He might not have even got the PhD at ucl and anyway, its in a different discipline.

Now.... there's a difference. CTers would use the above to leap further and say Kollerstrom's views are thus as valid as any others in a relativist universe. I don't - I'm clear, his views are plain wrong and his views are obnoxiouos. I just think they should be attacked - loudly and publicly - for what they are: holocaust denial and 9/11 nonsense. Attack the ideas and attack the man (deserved a good slap for harrassing survivors). Okay, use his links with UCL as part of that if you want - but its only a strategic thing. The fact that he is an 'academic' doesn't make this any worse than it already is - its bad enough that he lies about the death of 6 million people.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And how would a good communist revolution deal with the class enemies and enemies of the revolution?

How is that germane to the thread, eddy?

(I mean, we know it isn't, and that it's just flak, but hey, I believe in giving people the freedom to justify themselves if they wish to.)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ok, but I do not accept that there is no moral equivalency. And I think that the question is an interesting one whether one denies Stalin's, and other regimes actions or not. If you still seek a communist revolution, what to do with these enemies?

"Moral equivalency" implies the presence of morality.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are you suggesting deliberately lying about the fact that millions of people were industrially exterminated isn't a wrong idea or opinion? Are you suggesting it is a right opinion?

Nick Kollerstrom, by the way, published his articles freely and continues to do so.
We are freely discussing what he has freely disseminated. He chose to put it out there, along with his views on Jews - what, and we can't mention it? Or discuss it?

Witch hunt?
Piss off.

Quite.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Still think people are being a tad po faced about Kollerstrom's departure from this notion of pure, referenced social science. We all know that academia contains as many values and agendas as any other walk of life. Similarly the 'using his PhD' thing. He might not have even got the PhD at ucl and anyway, its in a different discipline.

Now.... there's a difference. CTers would use the above to leap further and say Kollerstrom's views are thus as valid as any others in a relativist universe. I don't - I'm clear, his views are plain wrong and his views are obnoxiouos. I just think they should be attacked - loudly and publicly - for what they are: holocaust denial and 9/11 nonsense. Attack the ideas and attack the man (deserved a good slap for harrassing survivors). Okay, use his links with UCL as part of that if you want - but its only a strategic thing. The fact that he is an 'academic' doesn't make this any worse than it already is - its bad enough that he lies about the death of 6 million people.

Kollerstrom is not an abberation amongst 9/11 and 7/7 ''truthers''.

He is indicative of a trend. How many other 'Truthers' believe similarly, how deep this goes, how extreme this is, nobody knows. The reaction of 'Truther' sites has been to hide all threads where the holocaust was openly denied and discussed. AS well as throwing abuse and ad-hominem attacks calling people Nazis.


Because Kollerstrom is publishing shite under his real name and using his PhD to give credibility to his drivel, and because he has behaved like an arse in real life, he is a good figure to examine and discuss.

But I am not going to hide the fact that I think, and Blairwatch thinks, that there is a strong undercurrent of this in the ''Truther'' cult/group/mindset.


And I think this storm is flushing it out.

I am extremely interested in the Truther reactions. I expected people to be disgusted with what Kollerstrom says, because it is odious. But it is the Truther reactions that are the most telling.

By the way, Aronowitz, the man who owns the 9/11 site has issued a notice to the group that he is taking it down.



Kollerstrom, writing as astro3 says

Mr Aronowitz kept repeating at the meeting that he had made the decision, to ‘pull the plug’ and that it would be for our own good. This site will just be frozen and go into a limbo somewhere. He owns the domain for www.nineeleven.co.uk and it would be an easy matter for him to hand it over to someone else in the group. But, that did not seem to be quite what he had in mind. His function seemed to be more of a Sword of Damocles. My impression, which may be mistaken, is that he has in mind two things: termination of this site by 15th June, and non-surrender of that URL so no-one else will be able to continue it.

In my opinion, he explained to us the reason for this forthcoming action, which pertained to Zion. He had been disturbed by continuing ‘anti-semitic’ references on the site he explained, and also ‘hate’ postings. Jews do use claims of ‘hate’ when eg disapproval of Israel bombardment of Lebanon is expressed. I surmise that my own articles may here be alluded to, eg ‘Zakheim and his missing trillions’, or Lucky Larry Silverstein getting his four billion to rebuild the WTC from Euro-insurance companies, etc.

A recent circular by Ian Henshall warned our group against succumbing to ‘anti-semitism’ so perhaps Simon was just agreeing with this? The US State Department defines ‘anti-semitism’ in terms of criticism of Israel*, and perhaps this was what Mr Aronowitz had in mind? Personally I'm very pro-Semitic: Semitic races are Arab, and not more than 15% of Israeli citizens are of Semitic extraction. Do I digress?

source *ww.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=112076&highlight=#112076

 

[ViolentPanda]

Still think people are being a tad po faced about Kollerstrom's departure from this notion of pure, referenced social science. We all know that academia contains as many values and agendas as any other walk of life. Similarly the 'using his PhD' thing. He might not have even got the PhD at ucl and anyway, its in a different discipline.

In my opinion part of the problem resides in the fact that academic credentials, whether relevant to the subject or not, will be possibly perceived by some as lending credibility to the premises being put forward.
We only have to look to the sources cited in Murray & Herrnstein's "The Bell Curve" to see a fine example of people using their academic credentials in other fields to give credence to pseudo-academic theories which then get published in pseudo-academic journals. Unfortunately, some people do still buy into this sort of subterfuge.

 

[butchersapron]

The problem is a societal deference to academics. Fuck 'em.

 

[butchersapron]

There is one thing to bear in mind here, all these people add up to nothing - they're isolated nutters who have been forced to huddle together by the common reactions to their idocies. They have no purhase anywhere.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

In my opinion part of the problem resides in the fact that academic credentials, whether relevant to the subject or not, will be possibly perceived by some as lending credibility to the premises being put forward.

Very good point. Its a bit like having a royal warrant for a business. There will always be enough people who are impressed by the fancy badge to take the establishment more seriously than it should. There is sadly an audience for stuff like that that spews from Kollerstrom and similar but sticking an acedemic badge on these witterings do give the impression to the impressionable that these are sensible theories rather than the usual bollocks.

Its not against freedom of speech to speak out when someone is mis-selling a product. Kollerstroms stuff seems to be the usual shit with a shiny academic coating to it.

He can fuck right off.

We only have to look to the sources cited in Murray & Herrnstein's "The Bell Curve" to see a fine example of people using their academic credentials in other fields to give credence to pseudo-academic theories which then get published in pseudo-academic journals. Unfortunately, some people do still buy into this sort of subterfuge.

Again I agree.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The problem is a societal defence to academics. Fuck 'em.

Soz, I'm assuming you were typing quickly and meant "deference". If so, I agree.We keep hearing from sociology that "the age of the expert" is done, but on a very basic level it's as strong as it ever was. You say "Dr" and people (even if only metaphorically) still tug the forelock.

 

[Wilf]

Because Kollerstrom is publishing shite under his real name and using his PhD to give credibility to his drivel, and because he has behaved like an arse in real life, he is a good figure to examine and discuss.

I agree, certainly. In fact my reservations on this are so small, they are hardly worth mentioning o).

All the "Nick Kollerstrom, PhD" is actually an indication of how stupid he is. Doesn't seem to realise that spouting such stuff will cause problems back at work.

 

[butchersapron]

Soz, I'm assuming you were typing quickly and meant "deference". If so, I agree.We keep hearing from sociology that "the age of the expert" is done, but on a very basic level it's as strong as it ever was. You say "Dr" and people (even if only metaphorically) still tug the forelock.

I was yep.

 

[fela fan]

Are you suggesting deliberately lying about the fact that millions of people were industrially exterminated isn't a wrong idea or opinion? Are you suggesting it is a right opinion?

Nick Kollerstrom, by the way, published his articles freely and continues to do so.
We are freely discussing what he has freely disseminated. He chose to put it out there, along with his views on Jews - what, and we can't mention it? Or discuss it?

Witch hunt?
Piss off.

No, i'm not suggesting that.

I'm supporting the right to have 'wrong' opinions without being witchhunted.

And so he should continue to publish his articles, and to be able to. The best way to see something is not good, is wrong, is not for the general public interest, is to see it in print, give them a chance to digest what is being said. There is no finer way to rubbish something that is clearly unacceptable for the majority.

To close down this minority view is to block the chance for the majority to reject it.

That is precisely why we should have total freedom of speech.

And i mean the word 'total'.

Give the hearers and readers the chance to decide for themselves what is drivel or what is dangerous drivel.

This thread has done its best to shut down this alternative viewpoint. It has gone emotionally overboard.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

The problem is a societal deference to academics. Fuck 'em.

Oi! Fuck deference not academics.

Louis Macneice

 

[butchersapron]

Oi! Fuck deference not academics.

Louis Macneice

I'd go along with that Dr Louis.

 

[butchersapron]

No, i'm not suggesting that.

I'm supporting the right to have 'wrong' opinions without being witchhunted.

What do you mean by witchhunted?

Of course he has the right to hold wrong opinions. I'm glad that you're finally managed to make this very basic point that, i think everyone else, actually started from. Well done on catching up. We're discussing what holding those opinions means for the rest of society and things like the social responsibility of public organisations.

Give us a shout when you're up to speed again.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

This thread has done its best to shut down this alternative viewpoint. It has gone emotionally overboard.

This thread far from shutting down an 'alternative viewpoint' (which is one way of describing holocaust denial) has rather effectively opened up said alternative viewpoint to scrutiny. Given your support for free speech I know that you will defend people's right to go as 'emotionally overboard' as they see fit when presented with such stupid, insulting lies.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice