British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[Spymaster]

Just to throw some suggestions out there (which other women might not agree with) but I think some effort not to be scornful if someone doesn’t know as much, doesn’t know the history, or the theory. So it doesn’t feel like a competition about obscure theory. It often feels like a club you can’t join.

Not as quick to be personal, and nasty personal, that silences people very effectively.

Try to see things from a women’s pov, or think about what a woman’s concerns might be about a certain situation?

Really hope these aren’t stupid or stereotyped things to say and just speaking for myself obviously.

Let's just remind ourselves were the original misogyny play was made here (page 8):

She's 19 and she ran away at 15. We as a society seem to have no problem in in extending compassion to adults who committed crimes while serving in the British army and virtually everyone involved in the violence, however brutal or sectarian in Northern Ireland has been let off. Why does she merit being treated differently?

They're men.

Simple as that. The reason British army soldiers are treated differently to this scumbag who volunteered to join a murderous rape cult and have their babies, is because she's a woman and the soldiers are men!

For fucking real?

Play that card, that way, and you're going to get pushback.

 

[Edie]

The row across social media is about culture, the concept of the nation state, borders and free movement, state and other responses to terror and many other things. There is a gendered element to it but it’s much wider than that imho

Sure. But it seems to me that the sex of this person is the lens through which the rest is viewed. The fact she’s a woman, left to marry a fighter, was pregnant, a baby is now involved, is very much at the heart of it.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Of course it is. Calling someone a misogynist is a lot worse than calling them a prick. You've called me a racist on this thread. That's a lot worse as well.

That sounds a bit like the NUS definition of personal abuse to be honest, whereby you're not allowed to make criticisms of someones' position and method. I don't consider genuine attempts at challenging racism to be a form of abuse.

Having said that, I don't think you're a racist, and I'm sorry you're upset mate, genuinely, so I went back to check the post. From what I remember this is the post right?

She was 15.

She was born in 2000.

She was Muslim.

She lived her whole life in a country where Muslims were demonised every single day in the media. Where she was told she was the enemy. Where far right groups formed specifically to target her.

Never mind the stuff we don't know about her. What might have been happening at school or at home. Just look at the stuff we know.

You're a lot slacker on the anti racist stuff when it doesn't concern the single market, aren't you?

I didn't call you a racist. And for clarity to everyone on Urban I don't think LBJ is a racist.

I did say I thought you were 'slacker' on your anti racism on this thread. To be fair, I was just a bit blown away by the thread in general and I didn't explain this vague comment.

What I meant was that I was really disgusted that given we all know that one of the things Daesh have leveraged in their grooming of disaffected youth in the West is the racism that Muslims experience in the West. I'm just sad that there's all this "she knew what she was getting in to" type stuff without any thought for why it might be she might not have any empathy or sympathy for non-Muslims and be attracted to Daesh in the first place.

I'm not saying that she did what she did because she was a victim of racism growing up, I don't know anything about her and don't really wish to; her personal story is being projected at us but she's one person among many and we're discussing her as an individual without the relevant info to do so and without thinking about the context of all this. Which I don't see the point in.

Sorry for picking on you too, plenty of others said similar, probably just did it cos we argue a lot on the Brexit threads.

PS I still think your support for Britain's continued membership of a white supremacist organisation is unacceptable though.

 

[abstract1]

Let's just remind ourselves were the original misogyny play was made here (page 8):




Simple as that. The reason British army soldiers are treated differently to this scumbag who volunteered to join a murderous rape cult and have their babies, is because she's a woman and the soldiers are men!

For fucking real?

Play that card, that way, and you're going to get pushback.

Why are you so angry with her? Your language is fascinating btw...

 

[SpackleFrog]

Bethnal Green is a bit stabby so one could see why this would excuse her wanting to go to Syria.

We're talking about how people reacted on the two threads, not about the two cases.

 

[ferrelhadley]

We're talking about how people reacted on the two threads, not about the two cases.

Yes everyone piled in to criticise one case and in the other some (you) tried to claim Bethnal Green was a refugee camp thus the behaviour was excusable.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Yes everyone piled in to criticise one case and in the other some (you) tried to claim Bethnal Green was a refugee camp thus the behaviour was excusable.

Just to be clear, I'm saying the refugee camp she is in now is a refugee camp. Not Bethnal Green.

 

[Spymaster]

Why are you so angry with her?

She went out of her way to push that agenda when it wasn't on the table at that point and the statement is spectacularly offensive. It's up there with Stupid Frank's 'British soldiers are as bad as Isis'. I won't speak for others but I'm very confident that her being a woman is the least of people's gripes here. If it were a man I would be saying precisely the same thing ... let him fucking rot.

Your language is fascinating btw...

Which language?

 

[MickiQ]

She's currently the most (in)famous but there are apparently about 20 UK born women and children and 6 male fighters in Kurdish hands, the Kurds don't want them which is understandable since they have limited resources. It cannot be beyond the wit of even this government to strike a deal with the Kurds whereby they slap the lot in handcuffs and haul their sorry asses into Iraqi Kurdistan to somewhere a RAF transport can go and get them.
Clearly they're the sort of people we want back even less than Gary Glitter but they are still UK citizens and thus our problem whether we want them or not. Once we get them here then the courts not
the press or social media will decide their fates.
She seems a pretty awful person to me and I wouldn't have shed any tears if like her friend she had died in the fighting but she's still a British citizen and entitled to a fair trial in a courtroom. It's not a matter
of whether she deserves one but that she is entitled to a trial by our rules, all our criticism of Daesh is based on the statement that we are civilized and they're not. So it behooves us to act civilized no matter how little we want to.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

She's currently the most (in)famous but there are apparently about 20 UK born women and children and 6 male fighters in Kurdish hands, the Kurds don't want them which is understandable since they have limited resources. It cannot be beyond the wit of even this government to strike a deal with the Kurds whereby they slap the lot in handcuffs and haul their sorry asses into Iraqi Kurdistan to somewhere a RAF transport can go and get them.
Clearly they're the sort of people we want back even less than Gary Glitter but they are still UK citizens and thus our problem whether we want them or not. Once we get them here then the courts not
the press or social media will decide their fates.
She seems a pretty awful person to me and I wouldn't have shed any tears if like her friend she had died in the fighting but she's still a British citizen and entitled to a fair trial in a courtroom. It's not a matter
of whether she deserves one but that she is entitled to a trial by our rules, all our criticism of Daesh is based on the statement that we are civilized and they're not. So it behooves us to act civilized no matter how little we want to.

Sod the RAF, get Cardiff City’s air transport division to bring ‘em back.

 

[abstract1]

She went out of her way to push that agenda when it wasn't on the table at that point and the statement is spectacularly offensive. It's up their with Stupid Frank's 'British soldiers are as bad as Isis'. I won't speak for others but I'm very confident that her being a woman is the least of people's gripes here. If it were a man I would be saying precisely the same thing ... let him fucking rot.

Which language?

“this scumbag who volunteered to join a murderous rape cult and have their babies, is because she's a woman and the soldiers are men!”

So you’re not judging her on her womanhood - “least of people’s gripes”? Seems to be at the root of yours...

dress it up how you like.

 

[Spymaster]

“this scumbag who volunteered to join a murderous rape cult and have their babies, is because she's a woman and the soldiers are men!”

So you’re not judging her on her womanhood - “least of people’s gripes”? Seems to be at the root of yours...

Eh?

It's exactly what she's done. If it were a bloke I might have said 'volunteered to join a murderous rape cult and kill Yazidi children'. But criticise a woman for volunteering to travel to Syria with the express aim of having jihadi kids to populate this evil "state" and we're all misogynists.

Do me a favour.

 

[kebabking]

...And the primary concern should be the safety of the new born. Its a measure of how far our society has sunk that his is not the main topic of debate.

I disagree - I think the safety of a newborn baby in some hellhole on the Syria-Iraq border should be a concern, but should it trump our concern for any random Syrian newborn in the same camp, or the camp 30 miles down the road, who's mother wasn't IS? should it trump our concern for the kids of the family she'll eventually live next to if she's brought back to the UK?

 

[abstract1]

Eh?

It's exactly what she's done. If it were a bloke I might have said 'volunteered to join a murderous rape cult and kill Yazidi children'. But criticise a woman for volunteering to travel to Syria with the express aim of having jihadi kids to populate this evil "state" and we're all misogynysts.

Do me a favour.

No favours due.

If she were he...

it’s not about criticising women, or issues of misogyny per se, it’s more subtle than that, which is why you don’t get it.

But you crack on with you bluff and bluster, Mr Outraged

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I disagree - I think the safety of a newborn baby in some hellhole on the Syria-Iraq border should be a concern, but should it trump our concern for any random Syrian newborn in the same camp, or the camp 30 miles down the road, who's mother wasn't IS? should it trump our concern for the kids of the family she'll eventually live next to if she's brought back to the UK?

The UK produced her, so she and her baby should be 'our problem', imo. MickiQ makes a good point and a sensible suggestion if there are a bunch of them there whose identities can be established. Quite right I'm sure that the Kurds would be very glad to be shot of them. Another consideration, perhaps: the UK produced these problem people, and it would be a good thing to do to offer to take them away.

 

[IC3D]

I think it's fair to say ISIS are a bit mysognistic at this point.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I disagree - I think the safety of a newborn baby in some hellhole on the Syria-Iraq border should be a concern, but should it trump our concern for any random Syrian newborn in the same camp, or the camp 30 miles down the road, who's mother wasn't IS? should it trump our concern for the kids of the family she'll eventually live next to if she's brought back to the UK?

That's a little bit whataboutary isn't it?

Given that the only British citizens in the camps are people who went out there to join Daesh and that we can be absolutely certain the UK authorities won't give a fuck about anyone else there. It's not as if the govt will save another baby instead.

As for the kids in Britain, we've done done to death that she'll be prosecuted, imprisoned, assessed, questioned, social services, monitoring, all the rest of it. Every month violent offenders leave prison and go back into residential communities, they might be a risk but that's not a valid reason to deny their rights.

 

[Spymaster]

it’s not about criticising women, or issues of misogyny per se, it’s more subtle than that ...

Lol!

She's 19 and she ran away at 15. We as a society seem to have no problem in in extending compassion to adults who committed crimes while serving in the British army and virtually everyone involved in the violence, however brutal or sectarian in Northern Ireland has been let off. Why does she merit being treated differently?

They're men.

Is it more subtle than that^^^?

 

[kebabking]

The UK produced her, so she and her baby should be 'our problem', imo. MickiQ makes a good point and a sensible suggestion if there are a bunch of them there whose identities can be established. Quite right I'm sure that the Kurds would be very glad to be shot of them. Another consideration, perhaps: the UK produced these problem people, and it would be a good thing to do to offer to take them away.

See, I'm much more persuaded by the idea that the UK has an obligation to the Kurds/Syrians to deal with British citizens who went there for a spot of slavery and mayhem than I am by arguments about either the rights of British citizens or the obligations the UK has towards those citizens - however I would ask when this responsibility for a 'former citizen/resident' ends: when they've been gone 5 years? 10 years? 30 years?

 

[abstract1]

Lol

Is it more subtle than that^^^

You love a gender binary, don’t you? I’m not remotely interested in your answer btw...

You’re dull as fuck when it comes to the interesting stuff x

 

[Spymaster]

You’re dull as fuck when it comes to the interesting stuff x

Sounds like you've been talking to my wife

 

[abstract1]

Sounds like you've been talking to my wife

Even she was bored by you - sorry.

 

[Spymaster]

Even she was bored by you - sorry.

We all have our crosses to bear. I'm hers.

Of course, I've been oppressing her for 22 years!

 

[SpackleFrog]

We all have our crosses to bear. I'm hers.

And ours.

 

[SpackleFrog]

And ours.

E2A: Damn. Should have said "She went into it with her eyes open..."

 

[A380]

The UK produced her, so she and her baby should be 'our problem', imo. MickiQ makes a good point and a sensible suggestion if there are a bunch of them there whose identities can be established. Quite right I'm sure that the Kurds would be very glad to be shot of them. Another consideration, perhaps: the UK produced these problem people, and it would be a good thing to do to offer to take them away.

And Holland. Dad was a Dutch IS murderer don’t forget. Should the KCT have a responsibility to go and get them?

 

[friedaweed]

Should the KFC have a responsibility to go and get them?

Aye send in the Colonel, bring that baby home

 

[kebabking]

That's a little bit whataboutary isn't it?...

No, I don't think it is.

If this person escapes some unpleasant fate at the hands of the Kurds/Syrians - even if she goes to prison in the UK for a period - that's not much of a deterrent for slavery and an accessory to genocide. The re-emergence of that slavery and genocide isn't likely to happen in the UK, but in the failed states of Iraq and Syria, IS re-emerging as a territorial power is already being talked about.

That random newborn in the camps who's mother wasn't in IS may be on the sharp end of that lack of deterrence.

If she returns to the UK, even if she does 20 years, she'll eventually live next to someone, or in the same street, and she'll have exciting stories of The Caliphate, a limited price to pay for failure, and a eventually she'll have a pupil/victim.

 

[Raheem]

I think the safety of a newborn baby in some hellhole on the Syria-Iraq border should be a concern, but should it trump our concern for any random Syrian newborn in the same camp, or the camp 30 miles down the road, who's mother wasn't IS?

It's not an abhorrent idea that countries that are in a position to do something about it don't leave their citizens to fester in refugee camps when they are there through no fault of their own. Whether the UK should assume responsibility for all babies in Syria might be something to write to your MP about. But the question is about whether and how the UK should uphold the rights of its citizens, rather than about the unfairness that not everyone has those rights.

 

[A380]

Aye send in the Colonel, bring that baby home

I’m not sure he was a real colonel...