British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[SpackleFrog]

By one person who's being a twat. That hasn't been the tone on this thread at all. Gentlegreen's 'baby factory' comment was ill judged but the thrust of his point was accurate. These women are (agreeing to) being used as sex objects and to produce babies for "the caliphate".

As I've made clear, I don't agree.

 

[Spymaster]

As I've made clear, I don't agree.

And as I've made clear, you're an idiot.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Not just an idiot, but an outright liar.

 

[Saul Goodman]

As I've made clear, I don't agree.

Would you mind pointing to all these misogynistic posts you keep mentioning?

 

[Athos]

I'm glad you agree on the second point. I hope you'll also agree that any action taken against her could also be taken against others - for example those who travelled to Syria to fight Daesh.

Yes. Which is part of the reason I've not argued that there should be any action to prevent her from coming to the UK (albeit I have no sympathy for her, have no desire for the state to activey asisst her, and hope that she will be held to account if she does return).

On the first point, I'm not sure what you mean. Clearly there's no tension between being born in Britain and becoming an Islamist, so you can't mean that. I assume therefore you're talking about a tension between British values and the values of Islamists. Where does this tension arise?

That'd be somewhat of a derail; my point was her case neatly encapsulates these very current issues (in response to Danny musing about why her specific case has drawn more attention than a more general thread on IS).

 

[tonysingh]

I like how this thread has not at all descended into arguments between different Urbs.

 

[Athos]

If you were saying that, you'd have said it. You didn't.

Err... that's exactly what I did say! I referred to the (putative) paradox as being a current question for the left.

She's a proxy. Her case is a simple, human encapsulation of some of the bigger political questions bubbling away at the moment e.g. the tension between Islamism and Britishness, and the paradox of the left's opposition to the state even when the state is opposing something the left also opposes (i.e. a brutal regime).

ETA: I think my syntax was poor; I was tring to convey that the alleged paradox is a second example of a bigger question; not that the tension between Islamism and Britishness was the example of such a question, before going on to assert the existence of the paradox.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I like how this thread has not at all descended into arguments between different Urbs.

Isn't that the whole point of every thread here? It's like Godwin's law, but Urban's law, which dictates that it's only a matter of time.

 

[Red Cat]

That’s a really odd comment. I expect there haven’t been many Muslims commenting either, or teenagers.

Is it? You may find it odd, but I find being one of the few women posting here a bit odd too.

I think if there were more teenagers, the posts about how daft and foolish they were, that would have been more challenged than it was, the resulting picture of a 15 year old may have been a less either/ or view and more and/and.

But who knows.

 

[Red Cat]

Yes. Which is part of the reason I've not argued that there should be any action to prevent her from coming to the UK (albeit I have no sympathy for her, have no desire for the state to activey asisst her, and hope that she will be held to account if she does return).



That'd be somewhat of a derail; my point was her case neatly encapsulates these very current issues (in response to Danny musing about why her specific case has drawn more attention than a more general thread on IS).

I think that's right but also issues about childhood and femininity and narratives of vulnerability vs competence, vulnerability vs agency etc. All just as political.

 

[Athos]

I think that's right but also issues about childhood and femininity and narratives of vulnerability vs competence, vulnerability vs agency etc. All just as political.

Yes, I agree.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Whether Britishness is simply being born in Britain, of the idea of British values, and the extent to which those values are compatible/clash with Islamism.
.

I don't think she is a good example of that, tbh, or at least she shouldn't be. She was born and grew up in Britain. She is British. So are a bunch of other people with abhorrent views. I have a huge problem with the idea of 'British values', a term used by people like Theresa May with whom I have precious little in common, value-wise, despite us both being British. There are other ways of framing a debate about Islamism and what the response of the rest of us should be to things like homophobia or misogynist views. 'Britishness' doesn't really have to enter into it, and shouldn't enter into it imo - that plays to a (big and small C) conservative agenda that we don't have to play along with.

And most of this thread at least hasn't focused on that kind of debate. Hopefully we're a bit better than that generally, a likefish or so excepted.

Truth about fundamentalist Islamism like that of IS is that it isn't compatible with anything other than Islamism. It isn't compatible with most other versions of Islam, let alone anything else.

 

[weltweit]

It seems Sky news has easy access to her, they reported from there a few hours after her baby was born today. If they can get in and out as desired perhaps the only things stopping her and her baby travelling to the UK may be paperwork and funds.

 

[Athos]

I don't think she is a good example of that, tbh, or at least she shouldn't be. She was born and grew up in Britain. She is British. So are a bunch of other people with abhorrent views. I have a huge problem with the idea of 'British values', a term used by people like Theresa May with whom I have precious little in common, value-wise, despite us both being British. There are other ways of framing a debate about Islamism and what the response of the rest of us should be to things like homophobia or misogynist views. 'Britishness' doesn't really have to enter into it, and shouldn't enter into it imo - that plays to a (big and small C) conservative agenda that we don't have to play along with.

And most of this thread at least hasn't focused on that kind of debate. Hopefully we're a bit better than that generally, a likefish or so excepted.

Truth about fundamentalist Islamism like that of IS is that it isn't compatible with anything other than Islamism. It isn't compatible with most other versions of Islam, let alone anything else.

I would tend to agree with your thinking about the question; my point was that the reason this thread captured the imagination
is that the question is so topical (albeit most of the thread hasn't been explicity addressed in those terms).

 

[abstract1]

What's your point? Do we have to start a "permission" thread, asking if it's OK to post on any thread where a woman is mentioned?

You do a good line in passive aggressive, I’ll give you that.

I don’t post much but read loads - you smell fishy; your misogyny is a giveaway...

 

[ferrelhadley]

Just reread the first couple of pages of this thread
Moronic Kentucky students in Maga hats mock Native American veteran
Not many calls for understanding or trying to find explanations here.

I'd say that 'bigoted god botherers' is an accurate description for the large group of Catholic people on an anti-abortion field trip who by accounts posted above also found time and reason to randomly abuse passers by. The fact that they are younger doesn't excuse their behaviour.

Groomed innocents vs bigoted god botherers.

 

[Saul Goodman]

You do a good line in passive aggressive, I’ll give you that.

I don’t post much but read loads - you smell fishy; your misogyny is a giveaway...

Get fucked. Prick. Nothing passive about it at all.

 

[abstract1]

Get fucked. Prick. Nothing passive about it at all.

Ha!

 

[weepiper]

Women generally notable in our absence from p and p threads. Twas ever thus.

 

[editor]

She's had her kid and is still pretty much unrepentant. In fact she's demanding that people should have sympathy for her:

hamima Begum, one of three teenage girls to flee east London for a new life with the Islamic State group, says she has given birth to a baby boy.

Ms Begum left four years ago aged 15. Found in a Syrian refugee camp last week, she now hopes to return home.

The 19-year-old told Sky News: "People should have sympathy towards me for everything I've been through."

Under international law, the UK is obliged to let a Briton without the claim to another nationality back in.

Asked if she had made a mistake by travelling to Syria, Ms Begum told Sky News: "In a way, yes, but I don't regret it because it's changed me as a person.

"It's made me stronger, tougher. I married my husband. I wouldn't have found someone like him back in the UK."

She continued: "I had my kids, I did have a good time there.

"It's just that then things got harder and I couldn't take it anymore."

And she's still down with beheadings too

Ms Begum was first tracked down by The Times. In an interview published on 13 February, she said she was heavily pregnant and had lost two children.

Asked if she was aware of IS beheadings before going to Syria, she told Sky News: "I knew about those things and I was OK with it. Because, you know, I started becoming religious just before I left.

"From what I heard, Islamically that is all allowed."

And she loved all the videos

She continued: "During the time I left I saw all the videos on the internet and that just kind of attracted me to them. Like it attracted a lot of people."

IS teenage bride Begum gives birth

 

[Athos]

Women generally notable in our absence from p and p threads. Twas ever thus.

Why do you think that is? Wht needs to change to put it right?

 

[Baronage-Phase]

She's had her kid and is still pretty much unrepentant. In fact she's demanding that people should have sympathy for her:
And she's still down with beheadings too
And she loved all the videos

"Islamicamly that's allowed"...she said that about beheadings....she is completely brainwashed.
She hasn't a clue how fucked up she is....
How does someone change from that kind of fuckedupness?
Can someone like this be rehabilitated into a western modern civil society?

 

[Edie]

Get fucked. Prick. Nothing passive about it at all.

Steady.

That’s a really odd comment. I expect there haven’t been many Muslims commenting either, or teenagers.

Its not an odd comment.

Who does this woman belong to. That’s what the fights over isn’t it?

So no it’s not weird that Red Cat made that comment.

 

[Saul Goodman]

..

She continued: "During the time I left I saw all the videos on the internet and that just kind of attracted me to them. Like it attracted a lot of people."

Yeah, she couldn't possibly still be a threat.
I can't believe people are giving her the time of day. I'm with Spy here, if it was a white bloke with a swastika tattoo, people would be screaming too bring back hanging.

 

[xenon]

And longer, more quickly, than the case seems to warrant. I’m not entirely sure why that should be. Wonder if it’s somehow easier to have views on an individual than a situation, but the main IS thread took three months to reach 40 pages. This one took three days.

It is largely pretty clear cut. Despite the weird stuff SF and Tim are coming out with most people are in agreement I think. Those things are being. The state shouldn’t go out of its way, send people over to retrieve her. If she makes it back here, investigation possible prosecution and her child probably taken into care.

Much easier than coming up with a solution for the multi dimensional horror show that is much of the Middle East.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Steady.

What, you think I should let some prick call me a misogynyst and say nothing?

 

[xenon]

Anyway I am just back from the pub so catching up. Has anyone been banned or change their minds yet?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Would you mind pointing to all these misogynistic posts you keep mentioning?

I've told you - I'm not interested in highlighting salient issues in the thread for you because I don't believe you're engaging genuinely in the discussion.

And because you're a rude prick.

 

[SpackleFrog]

And as I've made clear, you're an idiot.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Yes. Which is part of the reason I've not argued that there should be any action to prevent her from coming to the UK (albeit I have no sympathy for her, have no desire for the state to activey asisst her, and hope that she will be held to account if she does return).



That'd be somewhat of a derail; my point was her case neatly encapsulates these very current issues (in response to Danny musing about why her specific case has drawn more attention than a more general thread on IS).

So you're not saying there is a tension between British values and Islamist values then?