British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[brogdale]

Stop digging, pal.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

And longer, more quickly, than the case seems to warrant. I’m not entirely sure why that should be. Wonder if it’s somehow easier to have views on an individual than a situation, but the main IS thread took three months to reach 40 pages. This one took three days.

I said at the start of this thread that this was a perfect media click bait story. It speaks to various agenda of both the middle class left/liberals and also the alt right. My local rag, the Birmingham Mail, is getting thousands of comments on this story.

I’ve got zero sympathy for her but the debate is becoming increasingly vile on both sides

 

[A380]

she went off to be a fuck toy for a hunky jihad fighter for a truly repellant regime

She was a groomed child.

No, she was neither.

 

[Red Cat]

The whole thread has been a fight of sorts over this young woman. With very few women actually posting of course.

 

[weepiper]

What bollocks. She's 19 and unrepentent about fucking off to join a terrorist "state" who enslaved, raped, and murdered thousands of other women and who would do the same to you in a heartbeat. She seems to have happily engaged with what the scum were doing. She says she escaped because she saw no future for the caliphate, not because she thought they were cunts.

Pretty disgusting what you're doing here. Trying to crowbar in your agenda laden misogyny angle. The only difference between her and a male who'd done the same is that she's pregnant.

Absolutely nothing should be afforded her by the government. If she does manage to make it back here somehow her child should be removed and adopted whilst she is imprisoned until a) she shows some remorse, and b) she has been 'deradicalised' (if that's possible).

Care to reconsider whether I was 'trying to crowbar in my misogyny angle' yet Spy?

 

[Saul Goodman]

The whole thread has been a fight of sorts over this young woman. With very few women actually posting of course.

What's your point? Do we have to start a "permission" thread, asking if it's OK to post on any thread where a woman is mentioned?

 

[Helen Back]

No sympathy whatsoever.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

The whole thread has been a fight of sorts over this young woman. With very few women actually posting of course.

That’s a really odd comment. I expect there haven’t been many Muslims commenting either, or teenagers.

 

[Spymaster]

Care to reconsider whether I was 'trying to crowbar in my misogyny angle' yet Spy?

No, of course not. That was a response to your posts 30 pages ago where there'd been no suggestion of the nasty shit that Likesfish has come out with in the last couple. If you want to pull him on it now, I'm right behind you.

 

[Athos]

And longer, more quickly, than the case seems to warrant. I’m not entirely sure why that should be. Wonder if it’s somehow easier to have views on an individual than a situation, but the main IS thread took three months to reach 40 pages. This one took three days.

She's a proxy. Her case is a simple, human encapsulation of some of the bigger political questions bubbling away at the moment e.g. the tension between Islamism and Britishness, and the paradox of the left's opposition to the state even when the state is opposing something the left also opposes (i.e. a brutal regime).

 

[SpackleFrog]

Do you even read your own posts before posting them?
Because somebody saying something misogynistic on the internet is exactly the same as someobody stealing her sister's passport and flying off and joining a terrorist organisation for 4 years.

Did I say it was the same? No I didn't.

My point was just because someone thinks someone is a risk, that doesn't justify punitive action against them. I'm not comparing the risk. I'm saying that just because some people think someone is a risk, that doesn't justify pre-emptive punitive measures.

 

[cupid_stunt]

No, of course not. That was a response to a post 30 pages ago where there'd been no suggestion of the nasty shit that Likesfish has come out with in the last couple. If you want to pull him on it now, I'm right behind you.

You have already pulled him up, as have many of the rest of us.

 

[SpackleFrog]

No, of course not. That was a response to a post 30 pages ago where there'd been no suggestion of the nasty shit that Likesfish has come out with in the last couple. If you want to pull him on it now, I'm right behind you.

That's drivel. This has been building up.

 

[Red Cat]

What's your point? Do we have to start a "permission" thread, asking if it's OK to post?

If you talk to me politely I may answer. I'm not interested in having an argument with you, find someone else to do that with.

 

[SpookyFrank]

...and the paradox of the left's opposition to the state even when the state is opposing something the left also opposes (i.e. a brutal regime).

How's that a paradox? You do know 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' doesn't actually hold water as a rational statement yes? Even less so than usual when your friend helped create your enemy in the first place, and is committed to policies which act as a very effective recruitment tool for that enemy.

 

[Spymaster]

That's drivel. This has been building up.

More nonsense. One person has played that card and he's been roundly battered for it.

 

[Athos]

How's that a paradox? You do know 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' doesn't actually hold water as a rational statement yes? Even less so than usual when your friend helped create your enemy in the first place, and is committed to policies which act as a very effective recruitment tool for that enemy.

Quite. Which many on the liberal left seem not to understand.

 

[SpackleFrog]

the tension between Islamism and Britishness

What tension is that then?

the paradox of the left's opposition to the state even when the state is opposing something the left also opposes (i.e. a brutal regime).

There's no paradox. The states opposition to Daesh is not based on the same motivations and interests as those of the working class. The response of the labour movement and of socialists to Daesh must not be to justify an increasingly authoritarian state because that authoritarian state will be used against us.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Quite. Which many on the liberal left seem not to understand.

Nice try, no it was you who said there was a paradox not the 'liberal left'.

 

[SpackleFrog]

More nonsense. One person has played that card and he's been roundly battered for it.

Wrongly. And all those who's attitude was to ignore more subtle uses of mysogynist language should now recognise that that has led to more overt mysogyny.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Did I say it was the same? No I didn't.

My point was just because someone thinks someone is a risk, that doesn't justify punitive action against them. I'm not comparing the risk. I'm saying that just because some people think someone is a risk, that doesn't justify pre-emptive punitive measures.

Thinks? She spent 4 years as a member of a terrorist group, either watching or taking part in rapes and murders. Of course she's a fucking risk. Jesus Christ!

 

[Athos]

What tension is that then

Whether Britishness is simply being born in Britain, of the idea of British values, and the extent to which those values are compatible/clash with Islamism.

There's no paradox. The states opposition to Daesh is not based on the same motivations and interests as those of the working class. The response of the labour movement and of socialists to Daesh must not be to justify an increasingly authoritarian state because that authoritarian state will be used against us.

I agree with that completely. But, equally, a desire to oppose the 'traditional British right' ought not to strengthen the 'Islamic right'.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Thinks? She spent 4 years as a member of a terrorist group, either watching or taking part in rapes and murders. Of course she's a fucking risk. Jesus Christ!

Again, you're not reading my posts or engaging with what I am saying. I'm not saying she's not a risk. I'm just responding to those on this thread who believe they are in a position to know what risks she poses to society and therefore what punitive sanctions should be used against her.

I notice you've casually accused her of possibly "taking part in rapes and murders" by the way. Do you have any evidence or reports to back up that claim?

Just so you don't have any room to twist what I'm saying, I'm not saying that she didn't take part in rapes and murders. I'm just asking you why you think she may have done so.

 

[Athos]

Nice try, no it was you who said there was a paradox not the 'liberal left'.

No,I'm saying that whether or not there is a paradox is a hot topic at the moment on the left.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Whether Britishness is simply being born in Britain, of the idea of British values, and the extent to which those values are compatible/clash with Islamism.



I agree with that completely. But, equally, a desire to oppose the 'traditional British' right ought not to strengthen the 'Islamic right'.

I'm glad you agree on the second point. I hope you'll also agree that any action taken against her could also be taken against others - for example those who travelled to Syria to fight Daesh.

On the first point, I'm not sure what you mean. Clearly there's no tension between being born in Britain and becoming an Islamist, so you can't mean that. I assume therefore you're talking about a tension between British values and the values of Islamists. Where does this tension arise?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Again, you're not reading my posts or engaging with what I am saying. I'm not saying she's not a risk. I'm just responding to those on this thread who believe they are in a position to know what risks she poses to society and therefore what punitive sanctions should be used against her.

Who are these people you are you referring to?

I notice you've casually accused her of possibly "taking part in rapes and murders" by the way. Do you have any evidence or reports to back up that claim?

Just so you don't have any room to twist what I'm saying, I'm not saying that she didn't take part in rapes and murders. I'm just asking you why you think she may have done so.

Because that's what members of terrorist groups tend to do... Terrorism.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Whether Britishness is simply being born in Britain, of the idea of British values

Or option C: something with no actual meaning, invoked or ignored at will by those who want to trick people into doing stuff that makes no fucking sense, like voting UKIP or invading Iraq.

 

[Spymaster]

And all those who's attitude was to ignore more subtle uses of mysogynist language should now recognise that that has led to more overt mysogyny.

By one person who's being a twat. That hasn't been the tone on this thread at all. Gentlegreen's 'baby factory' comment was ill judged but the thrust of his point was accurate. These women are (agreeing to) being used as sex objects and to produce babies for "the caliphate".

 

[SpookyFrank]

No,I'm saying that whether or not there is a paradox is a hot topic at the moment on the left.

If you were saying that, you'd have said it. You didn't.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Who are these people you are you referring to?


Because that's what members of terrorist groups tend to do... Terrorism.

I'm getting bored of you and I don't think you're interested in a genuine discussion so I'm not going to comb the thread for evidence - there's plenty of posts where people have said what level of risk she would pose, and many of them have also suggested various punitive measures be taken.

I'm glad you've been honest enough to admit you have no evidence that she may have taken part in rapes and murders though, and you're just talking about what you think she might have done, with no basis in fact.