British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[Saul Goodman]

Sajid Javid thinks differently and while I wouldn't normally take his opinion over yours he is the Home Sec.

Pregnant ISIS bride could be stripped of UK citizenship and 'sent to Bangladesh'

Did you even read the story you linked to? Can you quote the passage where Sajid Javid said what you claim he said?

 

[SpackleFrog]

If a woman (or schoolgirl) applies for a job as a breeding factory then what is wrong with calling her that? That is her job title.
In any other context I would agree it is well out of order.

What's wrong with that is that although there are religious sects and far right organisations that do see women as breeding factories and there are even women that actively go along with that understanding of why women exist, we're not religious sects or far right organisations so we don't do that.

Do you really need this explaining?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Referring to a 'breeding factory' is crass, and, in another context, might well be misogynistic. But, ffs, what sort of warped priorities focus on that alleged misogynistic words rather than the actual brutal misogynistic acts of the regime she supported, with its stonings and mass rapes?!

Who on this thread is downplaying the mysogyny or the brutality of Daesh?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Sajid Javid thinks differently and while I wouldn't normally take his opinion over yours he is the Home Sec.

Pregnant ISIS bride could be stripped of UK citizenship and 'sent to Bangladesh'

There's nothing in that report that says Javid thinks he can strip her of UK citizenship.

Please stop making shit up & polluting the thread.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Did you even read the story you linked to? Can you quote the passage where Sajid Javid said what you claim he said?

Yes I did and you're right, he doesn't say he will strip her of citizenship but there is not a lot of difference between that and permanently banning someone from the country.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I just wonder if she might want to reconsider how great everything was in Raqqa.

That's the bit that struck me as well. She was shocked when her friend was killed cos everything was all good still back then. She doesn't regret joining IS. She only really regrets that IS is losing.

 

[weepiper]

Here's more evidence of the blatant mysogyny tim was referring to by the way. This isn't relevant to the discussion. It's just likesfish venting his feelings of frustration around women and sex.

It's fucking outrageous that this sort of chat is apparently ok on urban now

 

[SpackleFrog]

There's nothing in that report that says Javid thinks he can strip her of UK citizenship.

Please stop making shit up & polluting the thread.

Try this one then: British Isis bride who fled to Syria 'has right to return to UK', security minister says

"The government has stripped known Isis members with dual nationality of their British citizenship, but make sole UK nationals stateless under international law."

 

[cupid_stunt]

Yes I did and you're right, he doesn't say he will strip her of citizenship but there is not a lot of difference between that and permanently banning someone from the country.

FFS, he's not even permanently banning her from the country, he's quoted as saying - "If you do manage to return you should be ready to be questioned, investigated and potentially prosecuted."

 

[marshall]

What's all this 'schoolgirl' bollocks? Is it an attempt to make people feel sorry for her? She's not a schoolgirl, she's a 19 year old terrorist who happens to have been born in the UK.

15 or 19, whatever, I do feel sorry for her. Can't help it.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Try this one then: British Isis bride who fled to Syria 'has right to return to UK', security minister says

"The government has stripped known Isis members with dual nationality of their British citizenship, but make sole UK nationals stateless under international law."

"Has the right to return to the UK." It's right there in the link

 

[likesfish]

A 10-Minute Trial, a Death Sentence: Iraqi Justice for ISIS Suspects

is her fate if she ends up in the hands of the iraqi authorities kangeroo court followed by death but then again daesh didnt really give a fuck about anyone else so unlucky
I was responding to the idea that she'd be some sort of intelligence asset Daesh didn't give jobs to women so shes got nothing to trade

 

[skyscraper101]

she spent four years on her back spreading her legs for a jihadist an asset has something useful to offer she doesnt have anything to offer and isnt sorry

Even if that were true, you don't think an demonstrably easy to manipulate teenager with a four years of credible first hand involvement with ISIS members and their womenfolk isn't someone the British state could get capital from? Even without the newborn as leverage that's a pretty big open goal to miss by not getting her back to the UK.

 

[danny la rouge]

No, I wouldn't. I'll give you an example to help you explain why - people have often called for the EDL to be banned in Britain for example, something I've always strongly disagreed with. That's not because I care about freedom of speech for the far right or any othetr nonsense like that, it's because if you start saying the state should be allowed to determine what is legitimate political protest etc then they'll be banning left organisations and trade unions quite quickly.

I think if a situation happens where this individual is stripped of citizenship - on grounds which of course will be determined by lawyers in courts - then this will simply make it possible for lots of other people to be stripped of citizenship.

Daesh are a monstrosity. Don't let the monster distract you from the fact that the state is designed to exploit and oppress us all.

I agree with all of that, but I disagree with some of the conclusions that you seem to be deriving from it. I don’t think that Shamima Begum should be stripped of her UK citizenship, not for joining IS, not for supporting beheadings as “allowed under Islam”, not for any of her views or actions.

But that’s not the same as saying she should not be held to account for what she has done, if the ppportunity arises, nor is it the same as saying she bears no responsibility for any of it.

 

[Spymaster]

And you're a charmless prick.

It takes work.

 

[SpackleFrog]

"Has the right to return to the UK." It's right there in the link

Yes as long as she isn't stripped of citizenship in which case she loses the right.

Try and remember this discussion started because some people were saying they want her to be stripped of her citizenship, and then others said it wasn't possible. It is - I'm saying if you're in favour of that you've not thought about it very hard.

And while I remember:

What's all this 'schoolgirl' bollocks? Is it an attempt to make people feel sorry for her? She's not a schoolgirl, she's a 19 year old terrorist who happens to have been born in the UK.

This is incredibly dishonest and I don't know why you feel the need.

-When she was groomed she was a schoolgirl.

-When she ran away from home she was a schoolgirl.

As for terrorist, how are you defining terrorist? Just people who commit acts of terrorism? Or people who marry terrorists as well?

 

[MrSki]

we're not religious sects or far right organisations so we don't do that.

What is wrong with saying that a religious sect views women recruits in the way the view women recruits? Next you're going to tell me I can't call the KKK racist.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I agree with all of that, but I disagree with some of the conclusions that you seem to be deriving from it. I don’t think that Shamima Begum should be stripped of her UK citizenship, not for joining IS, not for supporting beheadings as “allowed under Islam”, not for any of her views or actions.

But that’s not the same as saying she should not be held to account for what she has done, if the ppportunity arises, nor is it the same as saying she bears no responsibility for any of it.

But I'm not saying she shouldn't be held to account for what she has done. Haven't said that anywhere. My original point was that I didn't see why people were foaming at the mouth and desperate for vengeance when there's nothing nice in store for her whatever happens.

 

[danny la rouge]

she spent four years on her back spreading her legs for a jihadist an asset has something useful to offer she doesnt have anything to offer and isnt sorry

You’re undermining your argument with that sort of attitude.

 

[A380]

Here's more evidence of the blatant mysogyny tim was referring to by the way. This isn't relevant to the discussion. It's just likesfish venting his feelings of frustration around women and sex.

FFS. Play the ball not the player. What a hate filled post because someone has taken a contrary view to your position.

 

[SpackleFrog]

What is wrong with saying that a religious sect views women recruits in the way the view women recruits? Next you're going to tell me I can't call the KKK racist.

That's not what was said. gentlegreen didn't say that Daesh/IS viewed her as a "jihadist factory". He just straight up called her a "jihadist factory".

 

[danny la rouge]

But I'm not saying she shouldn't be held to account for what she has done. Haven't said that anywhere. My original point was that I didn't see why people were foaming at the mouth and desperate for vengeance when there's nothing nice in store for her whatever happens.

My apologies then; I must have misread or confused your views with someone else’s.

 

[SpackleFrog]

FFS. Play the ball not the player. What a hate filled post because someone has taken a contrary view to your position.

Hey, you're right, me implying that likesfish is engaging in mysogny because he has a lot of frustration around women and sex is a bit speculative. No more speculative than some of his posts in relation to this girl though eh?

More importantly, people were claiming there was no mysogyny on this thread, I gave you a fairly clear cut example of it.

 

[cupid_stunt]

...some people were saying they want her to be stripped of her citizenship, and then others said it wasn't possible. It is

It isn't.

Under international & UK law, citizenship can not be revolved, unless there's dual citizenship, which there isn't in this case, someone can not be left stateless.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But I'm not saying she shouldn't be held to account for what she has done. Haven't said that anywhere. My original point was that I didn't see why people were foaming at the mouth and desperate for vengeance when there's nothing nice in store for her whatever happens.

You've said a fuck of a lot more than that on this thread. At one point you flat-out accused me of being racist for suggesting that Begum should be held accountable for what she has done. You're all over the place.

 

[SpackleFrog]

My apologies then; I must have misread or confused your views with someone else’s.

No worries. This seems a more angry/confused thread than most and a lot of people seem to be misreading things. I've definitely reacted more sharply than I normally would.

Mainly because I feel like the news coverage of this story has very little to do with a 19 year old girl currently in a refugee camp, and is much more about whipping up anger and bile at Daesh. Which is a perfectly valid thing to be angry at of course, but I don't think it's that useful. Daesh are all but defeated. The situation which gave rise to them continues.

E2A: Just to be crystal clear; whipping up anger at Daesh, who are all but defeated, is likely to mean whipping up anger at Muslims in general.

 

[Saul Goodman]

This is incredibly dishonest and I don't know why you feel the need.

-When she was groomed she was a schoolgirl.

-When she ran away from home she was a schoolgirl.

As for terrorist, how are you defining terrorist? Just people who commit acts of terrorism? Or people who marry terrorists as well?

Telling the truth is "incredibly dishonest"?
Are you her sister or a recruitment officer or...?

 

[Spymaster]

she spent four years on her back spreading her legs for a jihadist ...

No no no

 

[SpackleFrog]

You've said a fuck of a lot more than that on this thread. At one point you flat-out accused me of being racist for suggesting that Begum should be held accountable for what she has done. You're all over the place.

No I didn't. If you think you can quote me saying she shouldn't be held accountable, then go for it.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Telling the truth is "incredibly dishonest"?
Are you her sister or a recruitment officer or...?

You objected to her being described as a schoolgirl. It's a fact that she was a schoolgirl. I don't really know what you're arguing with. You don't want anyone to say a 15 year old girl that went to school was a schoolgirl.