British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[IC3D]

Surely there are internet dating sites in Syria?

 

[SpackleFrog]

No, I don't think it is.

If this person escapes some unpleasant fate at the hands of the Kurds/Syrians - even if she goes to prison in the UK for a period - that's not much of a deterrent for slavery and an accessory to genocide. The re-emergence of that slavery and genocide isn't likely to happen in the UK, but in the failed states of Iraq and Syria, IS re-emerging as a territorial power is already being talked about.

That random newborn in the camps who's mother wasn't in IS may be on the sharp end of that lack of deterrence.

If she returns to the UK, even if she does 20 years, she'll eventually live next to someone, or in the same street, and she'll have exciting stories of The Caliphate, a limited price to pay for failure, and a eventually she'll have a pupil/victim.

Are you saying we need a stronger deterrent to discourage people in Britain from travelling to Syria and joining Daesh? And if so, do you think a 'deterrent' is likely to have an effect on kids who've decided that might be something they want to do?

And on a possibly/possibly not related question, are you saying 20 years in prison wouldn't be a sufficient punishment in your eyes? Bearing in mind that we don't know much at this stage about the extent to which she may have been involved in enslavement and murder.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I’m not sure he was a real colonel...

Nah, he was a Commander

 

[kebabking]

Are you saying we need a stronger deterrent to discourage people in Britain from travelling to Syria and joining Daesh? And if so, do you think a 'deterrent' is likely to have an effect on kids who've decided that might be something they want to do?

And on a possibly/possibly not related question, are you saying 20 years in prison wouldn't be a sufficient punishment in your eyes? Bearing in mind that we don't know much at this stage about the extent to which she may have been involved in enslavement and murder.

I take the view that actively supporting - and that includes moving there - an organisation that is openly genocidal and all the rest of it, should carry a whole life sentence. I'm rather more relaxed about people who get caught up in something they don't understand, get there and quickly decide that it's not for them, but this one is intelligent, untepentant, and she stayed for four years. For her, it's a whole life sentence, both as punishment for her, and protection for the rest of us.

As for what such a threat/deterrent might do for those considering it - ideally they'll think very fucking hard about going, and perhaps ask themselves why society is so hostile to those who go overseas to support such groups. If not, and they go, and some time later they think they might fall into UK hands, then (with luck) they'll have the good manners to top themselves rather than spend 70 years in Belmarsh.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I take the view that actively supporting - and that includes moving there - an organisation that is openly genocidal and all the rest of it, should carry a whole life sentence. I'm rather more relaxed about people who get caught up in something they don't understand, get there and quickly decide that it's not for them, but this one is intelligent, untepentant, and she stayed for four years. For her, it's a whole life sentence, both as punishment for her, and protection for the rest of us.

As for what such a threat/deterrent might do for those considering it - ideally they'll think very fucking hard about going, and perhaps ask themselves why society is so hostile to those who go overseas to support such groups. If not, and they go, and some time later they think they might fall into UK hands, then (with luck) they'll have the good manners to top themselves rather than spend 70 years in Belmarsh.

Fair enough, at least you're fairly clear and putting it calmly.

Me, I think I need to know more than I do before I'm ready to say she gets life.

 

[A380]

 

[eoin_k]

Can anyone suggest a precedent for repatriating the mother?

People of all nationalities get extradited to face charges, but extraditing her from Syria for her activities in that country seems.... unusual if not impossible. In any case you can't claim a right to extradition. It's a matter for prosecutors to decide on.

States also deport people all the time, but that is not Britain's role here, and part of the problem is the absence of a state with the means to deport her.

People also get repatriated at the discretion of their Government, but not generally when they are affiliated to a proscribed organization. I'm not claiming it's a question of membership or active criminality, but shear hostility to the British state. This is not the same as an anarchist earthquake victim. Her hostility to the state that she is making a claim on is intrinsically bound up with the reasons why she's there.

The birth of the child now complicates matters further, but it's still an odd case.... when has any other state met such a claim? Genuine question.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Can anyone suggest a precedent for repatriating the mother?

People of all nationalities get extradited to face charges, but extraditing her from Syria for her activities in that country seems.... unusual if not impossible. In any case you can't claim a right to extradition. It's a matter for prosecutors to decide on.

States also deport people all the time, but that is not Britain's role here, and part of the problem is the absence of a state with the means to deport her.

People also get repatriated at the discretion of their Government, but not generally when they are affiliated to a proscribed organization. I'm not claiming it's a question of membership or active criminality, but shear hostility to the British state. It's not the same as an anarchist earthquake victim. Her hostility to the state that she is making a claim of is intrinsically bound up with the reasons why she's there.

The birth of the child now complicates matters further, but it's still an odd case.... when has any other state met such a claim? Genuine question.

I don't think the British state will attempt to extradite her. At some point she'll end up either in a state that wishes to deport her to here, or charge her, or she'll reach a British consulate and request to return, if indeed that's still what she wants.

 

[8ball]

Well, I missed a good few pages of the fun, but have to say on catching up that my mind is now changing on the matter.

Spoiler

What if we mixed the cheese and beans together and *then* put them on the potato?

 

[eoin_k]

I don't think the British state will attempt to extradite her. At some point she'll end up either in a state that wishes to deport her to here, or charge her, or she'll reach a British consulate and request to return, if indeed that's still what she wants.

Sure. But what precedent is there for granting such a request? People clearly get extricated from hairy situations all the time, but not generally in circumstances intricately bound up with their ongoing hostility to the state in question.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Have barely regarded this story. Seems a lot of fear and outrage over “stupid impressionable young person does rather revolting and stupid thing”

Meanwhile the government fully supports the huge extremist massacre in Yemen and not a single politician has ever asked May why she lifted Control Orders on the group linked to the Manchester bomber.

Let’s not pretend that our establishment gives a flying fuck about this broad issue. They do strictly posture and disinfo.

 

[Combustible]

She seems a pretty awful person to me and I wouldn't have shed any tears if like her friend she had died in the fighting but she's still a British citizen and entitled to a fair trial in a courtroom. It's not a matter
of whether she deserves one but that she is entitled to a trial by our rules, all our criticism of Daesh is based on the statement that we are civilized and they're not.

A British citizen is not generally entitled to a fair trial if they are apprehended in a jurisdiction where fair trials are not practiced. The government may choose to intervene on their behalf, but generally their position is that they will not interfere with local legal processes/laws even if they are not fair. So I don't see that the government has an obligation to intervene on her behalf, but obviously she has the right to enter the UK, receive the normal consular assistance, and a trial under British law if she makes it back to the UK.

But I agree that if the Kurdish authorities want her gone, the government should work with them to bring her and other British IS members to the UK. Whatever burden ex IS members are on the UK and other western countries is miniscule compared to the burden on those in that area of Syria, who also have a lot less resources to deal with them than western states.

 

[Humberto]

i think there are pressures that are denied and unacknowledged. Banned even. Now, claiming competence and determination does not equate to it. I don't think leaving such a society makes one a fanatic. Furthermore (I may have missed a beat) do we expect this women to denounce IS in her present circumstances. Has she not realistically already put her neck on the line? So I suppose when she is inevitably dead we can say: not one of us, least deserving, and just one of them.

 

[8ball]

...do we expect this women to denounce IS in her present circumstances?

She has already denounced them. She just hasn't denounced what they stand for.

 

[Humberto]

And how realistic would it be to do so I wonder?

 

[eoin_k]

Begum has accused Isis of corruption, described its use of torture and concluded that it no longer deserves to win. However, while another woman in the same predicament has expressed regret, she has explicitly refused to do so. She feels that the experience has made her tougher and a stronger person.The journalist who spoke to her said something along the lines of "Let us be in no doubt. She is indoctrinated in this ideology."

 

[MrSki]

When she says there is no evidence of ... It comes across to me as being a bit coached.

 

[eoin_k]

When she says there is no evidence of ... It comes across to me as being a bit coached.

How so? If I was coaching someone in this situation, I'd suggest that "I didn't do anything" sounds a lot more innocent than "You can't prove that I did anything".

 

[LDC]

Seems a lot of fear and outrage over “stupid impressionable young person does rather revolting and stupid thing”

I'd say putting it down as 'revolting and stupid' is somewhat underplaying what she did and supported, and by her own admission still supports.

 

[butchersapron]

She, in her small way, helped kill the revolution. For me there is no coming back from that. I don't care about what happens to her legally. If the law says she comes in then she comes in, if the law says the home sec can block this then he blocks it. Whatever. The wider point for me is the ongoing harm scum like this have done to so many more people and have ensured that it will continue to happen for at least another few decades. Who will ever now dare rise en masse against assad?

 

[Thimble Queen]

I've watched the sky news video again. Initially, I thought she seemed cheeky af saying that people ought to feel sorry for her. But watching it again, she seems utterly broken and not very bright at all. Esp when she saying things like she had a good time She's utterly out of touch with how a right thinking person might view her and the journalist really had to lead her to making the apology to her family.

I don't think the Kurds should have to put up with her and others like her and I agree with what another poster said about that being a more compelling argument for bringing her back than the stuff about her and her baby being British. She absolutely needs to face the consequences of what she's done.

 

[Athos]

She absolutely needs to face the consequences of what she's done.

She is. Literally.

 

[Red Cat]

I'd say putting it down as 'revolting and stupid' is somewhat underplaying what she did and supported, and by her own admission still supports.

Also stupid impressionable young person again. Young people aren't stupid. Really pisses me off this.

 

[butchersapron]

The pkk want to drag this out as long as possible btw. The longer that they have western focus on them the longer they have to argue their case, avoid turkish attacks, deflect from their ongoing complicity - no, not complicity, integration is the word - with the regime as good solid anti-extremists, look like humans etc Might buy them a few years.

 

[MrSki]

How so? If I was coaching someone in this situation, I'd suggest that "I didn't do anything" sounds a lot more innocent than "You can't prove that I did anything".

Just my opinion. I will bow to your legal superiority.

 

[MrSki]

I've watched the sky news video again. Initially, I thought she seemed cheeky af saying that people ought to feel sorry for her. But watching it again, she seems utterly broken and not very bright at all. Esp when she saying things like she had a good time She's utterly out of touch with how a right thinking person might view her and the journalist really had to lead her to making the apology to her family.

I don't think the Kurds should have to put up with her and others like her and I agree with what another poster said about that being a more compelling argument for bringing her back than the stuff about her and her baby being British. She absolutely needs to face the consequences of what she's done.

The interview was done just hours after giving birth. I am surprised that Sky did it then to be honest.

 

[tim]

The interview was done just hours after giving birth. I am surprised that Sky did it then to be honest.

Why? They're journalists looking for a headline grabbing story. How else would you expect them to behave?

 

[butchersapron]

Just them alone playing a one-sided game then you think? Really?

 

[tim]

Can anyone suggest a precedent for repatriating the mother?

People of all nationalities get extradited to face charges, but extraditing her from Syria for her activities in that country seems.... unusual if not impossible. In any case you can't claim a right to extradition. It's a matter for prosecutors to decide on.

States also deport people all the time, but that is not Britain's role here, and part of the problem is the absence of a state with the means to deport her.

People also get repatriated at the discretion of their Government, but not generally when they are affiliated to a proscribed organization. I'm not claiming it's a question of membership or active criminality, but shear hostility to the British state. This is not the same as an anarchist earthquake victim. Her hostility to the state that she is making a claim on is intrinsically bound up with the reasons why she's there.

The birth of the child now complicates matters further, but it's still an odd case.... when has any other state met such a claim? Genuine question.

As she wants to return to the UK, it wouldn't be extradition.

 

[xenon]

Has the crowd funder to go and get her started yet?