Britain, Yemen of the West?

[TomUS]

How did Britain (& the EU) come to produce such a high proportion of Islamic jihadists? What, if anything could or should be done to combat this?

(IS)...has been visited by up to 2,800 Westerners since February 2011. About 500 of these, a disproportionate number, are British (and a further 1,500 are EU citizens with travel rights to the UK).

Britain’s key failing is that it was tough where it should have been liberal, and liberal where it should have been tough. It extended detention without trial and stop-and-search: sweeping measures that affected everyone and left Muslims, most of whom are completely blameless, feeling under attack. At the same time, it was ridiculously tolerant and indulgent towards a small minority of Muslim radicals.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...How-Britain-became-the-Yemen-of-the-West.html

 

[quiquaquo]

WTF is the fucking USA then?

 

[NoXion]

The KSA?

 

[TomUS]

WTF is the fucking USA then?

Seems I touched a nerve. Any comment relating to the topic, or just nationalist rage?

 

[Yossarian]

WTF is the fucking USA then?

If Yemen is the Britain of the Middle East, I guess the USA is the Saudi Arabia - lots of money, influence, power, and weapons, but everything that happens is all somehow somebody else's fault.

 

[TomUS]

If Yemen is the Britain of the Middle East, I guess the USA is the Saudi Arabia - lots of money, influence, power, and weapons, but everything that happens is all somehow somebody else's fault.

Again, any comment relating to the topic, or just nationalism?

 

[quiquaquo]

Seems I touched a nerve. Any comment relating to the topic, or just nationalist rage?

Neither, just loathe the Great Satan/Epitome of Evil with every bone in my body.

 

[Yossarian]

Again, any comment relating to the topic, or just nationalism?

Throughout history, bored, maladjusted and sexually frustrated young men have sought excitement and identity through violence. Where a non-Muslim adolescent might only have the outlet of gang fights in shopping centres or punch‑ups in pubs, young Muslims have the glamour, thrill and wider meaning of Middle East combat. The connections they can make online, with others far away, and the ease of travel in the globalised world complete the picture.

The author sounds mostly full of crap, tbh - it's not like ISIS are the only organisation offering "bored, maladjusted, and sexually frustrated young men" the "glamour, thrill, and wider meaning of Middle East combat," I think the British Army is still recruiting.

 

[TomUS]

Throughout history, bored, maladjusted and sexually frustrated young men have sought excitement and identity through violence. Where a non-Muslim adolescent might only have the outlet of gang fights in shopping centres or punch‑ups in pubs, young Muslims have the glamour, thrill and wider meaning of Middle East combat. The connections they can make online, with others far away, and the ease of travel in the globalised world complete the picture.

The author sounds mostly full of crap, tbh - it's not like ISIS are the only organisation offering "bored, maladjusted, and sexually frustrated young men" the "glamour, thrill, and wider meaning of Middle East combat," I think the British Army is still recruiting.

Yes, the author gets silly with the "bored, maladjusted, and sexually frustrated" line. But fighting for god can be quite alluring to some who are frustrated/angry & in need of making their lives "mean something." The British army can't compete with fighting for god.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

How did Britain (& the EU) come to produce such a high proportion of Islamic jihadists? What, if anything could or should be done to combat this?

Britain could stop starting wars and invading Muslim countries, perhaps?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Again, any comment relating to the topic, or just nationalism?

You're the one who started the thread with a fatuous comparison.

btw when you ask what should be done about it, I'm assuming you're asking what the very people who have been starting wars and invading Muslim countries should be doing about it. Why ask us?

 

[TomUS]

Britain could stop starting wars and invading Muslim countries, perhaps?

It could stop following & supporting America doing those things.

 

[free spirit]

probably has a lot to do with this.

 

[TomUS]

You're the one who started the thread with a fatuous comparison.

btw when you ask what should be done about it, I'm assuming you're asking what the very people who have been starting wars and invading Muslim countries should be doing about it. Why ask us?

I started it with an article from a British paper that says Britain/Europe have handled the rise of violent Islamic extremism in their midst very badly. I agree America bears a huge responsibility for this rise in the ME & Europe due to the Bush/Cheney neocon gang invading Iraq.

I ask you because you live (I assume) in the country the article focuses on. You seem to be arguing that Britain/Europe has nothing to do with some of it's citizens getting whipped up into a frenzy & charging off to join ISIS & potentially coming back more radicalized & combat trained. You seem to not want to face a problem festering in you're own back yard.

 

[TomUS]

probably has a lot to do with this.

That's nearly as bad as America's pie chart. Thought Britain was a little more egalitarian. But guess that's an image they project. But, if you're saying that a bunch of people on the bottom are desperate & hopeless so they're more likely to grab onto something destructive like jihadism....well yea.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You seem to not want to face a problem festering in you're own back yard.

You seem not to like my solution.

How about this:
Leave NATO, bring every British soldier on active service abroad doing anything other than peace-keeping for the UN home immediately. Stop starting wars. Stop bombing people. Stop sending people off to kill others.

This might sound fanciful, but it is no more than a lot of other countries already do.

 

[TomUS]

You seem not to like my solution.

How about this:
Leave NATO, bring every British soldier on active service abroad doing anything other than peace-keeping for the UN home immediately. Stop starting wars. Stop bombing people. Stop sending people off to kill others.

This might sound fanciful, but it is no more than a lot of other countries already do.

I like your solution.

 

[free spirit]

That's nearly as bad as America's pie chart. Thought Britain was a little more egalitarian. But guess that's an image they project. But, if you're saying that a bunch of people on the bottom are desperate & hopeless so they're more likely to grab onto something destructive like jihadism....well yea.

pretty much.

Listening to the reasoning they give on some of the tv / youtube footage, and the ones I've seen all seem to mention something about their dead end jobs / wasting their lives, vs what they're doing now feeling like they're doing something important with their lives.

 

[nino_savatte]

How did Britain (& the EU) come to produce such a high proportion of Islamic jihadists? What, if anything could or should be done to combat this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...How-Britain-became-the-Yemen-of-the-West.html

You've cited the Torygraph. But worse still is the fact that this article is written by Andrew 'Everyone who doesn't agree with me is a Jihadist' Gilligan. Paranoid shite of the first order.

The comments thread, predictably, is full of the usual headbangers who congregate on Gilligan articles to whine about 'multiculturalism' and heap tons of praise on Enoch Powell, who is regarded as something of a saint in the eyes of right-wing nutters.

Take this one from "tomaso"

tomaso • 9 days ago
Melanie Phillips wrote a book in 2008, called "Londonistan: How Britain is Creating a Terror State Within". Haven't read the book, or wish to, but the title says enough.

The Seeds You Sow!!.................Multi-Cultural fiasco!!

This commenter, on the other hand, has got Gilligan sussed.

Daniel Mahler • 9 days ago
Gilligan presents himself as a no-holes-barred truth-teller, but in fact he is just another lying journalist who specialises in propaganda for his masters. The only truthful part in the waffle he wrote is when he describes the video of the alleged murder of a journalist as a "movie". For all we know this is probably what it is, namely just some actors being filmed. There is clearly a massive attempt to put the idea that there is a threat from Muslims in the gullible public's mind (includes most DT readers it seems judging from comments) and Gilligan is just playing his little part in this con.

 

[nino_savatte]

Throughout history, bored, maladjusted and sexually frustrated young men have sought excitement and identity through violence. Where a non-Muslim adolescent might only have the outlet of gang fights in shopping centres or punch‑ups in pubs, young Muslims have the glamour, thrill and wider meaning of Middle East combat. The connections they can make online, with others far away, and the ease of travel in the globalised world complete the picture.

The author sounds mostly full of crap, tbh - it's not like ISIS are the only organisation offering "bored, maladjusted, and sexually frustrated young men" the "glamour, thrill, and wider meaning of Middle East combat," I think the British Army is still recruiting.

Indeed, the same could be said of gung-ho fools who join the IDF.

 

[TomUS]

You've cited the Torygraph. But worse still is the fact that this article is written by Andrew 'Everyone who doesn't agree with me is a Jihadist' Gilligan. Paranoid shite of the first order.

Thanks for the info. I'd never heard of Gilligan.

Meanwhile, Cameron wants the UK to be able to grab passports of returning jihadists.

New powers are needed to seize terrorist suspects' passports and stop British-born extremists from returning to the UK, David Cameron has said.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29008316

 

[DotCommunist]

he's already got the powers to do this. Its all there in blairs anti terror laws of 15 year ago. Its all there in the hysterical anti football hooliganism laws. These peopleare addicted to issuing new legislature rather than applying existing. Because applying existing doesn't sem so pro active and important

 

[Casually Red]

this is worth a read

A rogue state according to one of their former ambassadors

http://www.globalresearch.ca/former...n-says-uk-rogue-state-danger-to-world/5398247

 

[Dowie]

probably has a lot to do with this.

I'm not sure it has anything to do with that... or at least I'm not aware of a link. AFAIK it is more ideological - people dropping out of medical school to go over there certainly don't seem to be motivated by poverty/lack of opportunities.

As for why we've got more Jihadi's - maybe we've got a higher % of people of with links to certain less liberal Islamic countries... France has a larger % of Muslims from which you may still find fundamentalists but lots of them are people of North African origin who would tend to have more liberal views... Whereas in countries such as Pakistan some rather conservative views are fairly prevalent and that could certainly have an impact on how conservative the views are of people with strong links to that country are and in turn increase the chances that a certain % from that population are likely to find certain fundamentalist views attractive.

 

[sim667]

Indeed, the same could be said of gung-ho fools who join the IDF.

Well I think the IDF still has national service for Israelis, (men and women).

 

[nino_savatte]

Well I think the IDF still has national service for Israelis, (men and women).

I was thinking more of the foreign (US and UK) fighters who sign up with the IDF with the expressed intention of killing Ay-rabs.

 

[sim667]

I was thinking more of the foreign (US and UK) fighters who sign up with the IDF with the expressed intention of killing Ay-rabs.

Oh right.

 

[free spirit]

I'm not sure it has anything to do with that... or at least I'm not aware of a link. AFAIK it is more ideological - people dropping out of medical school to go over there certainly don't seem to be motivated by poverty/lack of opportunities.

Tom Dolphin, of the British Medical Association, told the Junior Doctors Conference that students paying £9,000 tuition fees will have debts of up to £70,000 by the time they start working.

being a medical student is no guarantee of not being disillusioned with your lot in life, staring down the barrel at £70k of debt just to get yourself qualified to become a junior doctor working crazy hours for several years before eventually maybe 10-15 years later you've paid you debts off, got up the ladder a bit and can maybe then pay through the nose for a house on a 25 year mortgage.

I cam well see why someone looking at that prospect might still actually think that going off to fight with their mates, or to be a medical officer with them etc. seems like a more exciting prospect.

Pretty much whichever way kids turn these days they're staring at some pretty unappealing initial prospects, with the potential light at the end of the tunnel a hell of a lot further down the tunnel than it used to be.

 

[8115]

I think one of the reasons is the way that we tackled extremism from the very beginning, the response was Islam = terrorism, no attempt to engage with those who had different religious beliefs but rather to demonise them. The response drove people into the arms of fundamentalists and terrorists. "If you're not with us, you're against us". And too many young Muslims looked at "us" and decided they'd rather be against.

 

[Dowie]

being a medical student is no guarantee of not being disillusioned with your lot in life, staring down the barrel at £70k of debt just to get yourself qualified to become a junior doctor working crazy hours for several years before eventually maybe 10-15 years later you've paid you debts off, got up the ladder a bit and can maybe then pay through the nose for a house on a 25 year mortgage.

Well I'm not sure 70k debt at a low interest rate which is just deducted as you earn is much of a burden for people who will potentially be earning 100k later in their careers as established GPs, consultants etc...

(They've got rid of the working crazy hours thing AFAIK... or at least its been cut down compared to what it used to be.)

Anyway the point I'm really not sure there is any evidence of poverty being a motivation for jihad for westerners. It seems to be far more an ideological thing... The Iraq war, the perception of Islam in general being under attack by the west would seem to be bigger factors than poverty. For example there is a former private school pupil's family in the press today for example appealing for their daughter to return from Syria.