Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Actually it's a thread about a book about anti-fascism. And you've been talking about Dover. Which isn't in the book.
To which Red Sky must surely reply: "What book?"
Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action
- Thread starter cogg
- Start date
To which Red Sky must surely reply: "What book?"
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
How do you think that is maintained? Do you think battering some fash in the 90s was sufficient for forever and a day.
I totally reject butchersapron aspersion that militant antifascism these days is only set pieces. That's the only bit that he hears about. What really goes on is little different than what went on yesteryear and is vital work in a keeping the opposition in their place.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
How do I think what is maintained?
The far-right's preference for political rather than physical strategies at the moment?
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
Maintaining the fash under the cosh.
Who's the far-right in your mind?
SEA, NWI, NA, NF, BM, P&M?
I think you're a bit behind the times. We've seen a total rejection by many far-right groups of the electoral strategy recently. This has allowed them to free themselves of the pretense of not being boneheads. This has meant a sharp rise in violence both of the set pieces BA mocks and much more away from the headlines.
BTW the physical is political.
Last edited:
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Set pieces? What's wrong with a free kick at fascists? I'm a bit old to play the game (to continue the metaphor) these days but all power to those that can and do.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i think you should pay more attention to the sea if you think all they do is street stuff.
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
I'm aware of Pitt and Cos charidee/community work. I can't see them winning council seats, can you?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Obviously it's over simplistic of me to pose the political and physical as some sort of seperate entities, and yes - of course - the physical strategy is a political choice. But you know full well what I mean.
Of course there will always be ebbs and flows and movement amongst the spectrum of far-right groups (I'm deliberately not using the label fascist as that's not helpful here) that's not new, even at the height of their use of physical force there will have been both groups and individual activists arguing for a more electoral approach...
...so of course there will always be times when physical force rears its head and needs to be appropriately dealt with.
However, and not withstanding minor moves to the contrary by small grouplets (and that is all it is in the U.K. at the moment) by far the biggest threat that the far-right poses now (and this has been the case for over a decade now, probably closer to two frankly) is a non-physical one.
Both the BNP and (in some ways) UKIP have shown that it is a more fruitful avenue to pursue than trying to "control the streets".
I could repeat all the stuff that AFA and the IWCA keep saying, but they said it better than me and I'm sure you've read it?
But a political response is harder in so many ways than a physical one.
But you know this, right?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no. yes, there are continuities, but there are also considerable differences. in the pre- and early days of the internet things were considerably different - gathering information meant a lot of legwork. the advent of social media has changed a lot. you don't need someone to go undercover in the far right to know what they're thinking, you go and have a look on facebook or storm*runt or whatnot. but this has opened up a whole new front, as britain first have shown through their propaganda campaign.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes. you are aware of it. yet you can't see its meaning, its worth.
have a think.
the area in which they're working is something which has traditionally been a concern of the left, not the right. it is taking political space away from the left. it is something which is unlikely to lead to the sea being in council chambers in thurrock, admitted. but what happens if this same agenda moves from one part of the periphery to another, from the periphery of fascist activity to being a greater part of it? your limited thinking doesn't grasp the meaning of things, nor their implications.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
SEA - tiny
NWI - jailed
NA - small silly and compromised
NF - split
BM - a flag and a couple of gluebag memories
P&M - no shows
EDL - dead.
Chilango: 'Both the BNP and (in some ways) UKIP have shown that it is a more fruitful avenue to pursue than trying to "control the streets".'
we're back to the question of 'filling the vacuum.' how to deal with ukip - once they decide who's the next leader.
NWI - jailed
NA - small silly and compromised
NF - split
BM - a flag and a couple of gluebag memories
P&M - no shows
EDL - dead.
Chilango: 'Both the BNP and (in some ways) UKIP have shown that it is a more fruitful avenue to pursue than trying to "control the streets".'
we're back to the question of 'filling the vacuum.' how to deal with ukip - once they decide who's the next leader.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh. But the BNP have shown how a far right party with many years of a shit public image can in a few years be transformed into a party with no more than about 15000 members at any one time, with a high turnover of members, punching well above its weight. But pretty much every far right group wants to replicate that w/o the negative Griffin factor, with a load of tinpot little Hitlers.
Last edited:
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
and yet BNP fell to bits (insert favoured conspiracy theory here) cos of griffin's astonishing ineptitude. there's that phrase, 'snatching defeat from the jaws of success' (which i 1st saw applied to johnny thunders) which is most applicable.
Actually it's a thread about a book about anti-fascism. And you've been talking about Dover. Which isn't in the book.
The thread's remit seems to have broadened a bit in 200 odd pages - iirc there is a bit about some dust up in Dover in the book. If you look back I didn't mention Dover until butchersapron did. (although no doubt our telepathic/paranoid comrade will insist that the air of Kentish coastal town was implicit in my original quip).
I've read it , I don't own a copy. It's not quite the Holy Writ is it?
Nobody is saying that there is no need to confront the far-right politically are they?
However there has been a need in the last six years to confront them physically as well. Is anyone seriously suggesting that no-one should have tried to stand together with communities who were being repeatedly subjected to mass far-right mobilisations with the clear intent to intimidate them? I went to oppose a few of the early EDL efforts, in and they were clear attempts to intimidate people and communities who were being targetted on a racial basis. I don't think that showing physical solidarity was a waste of time or energy.
Right now there has been an ebb in far-right activity. Should we let up - give them time to recover? I don't think it should be the primary overriding task of the whole Left or even one of its main priorities but opposing them is still important.
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
That is not an argument for giving up militant anti-fascism but for filling that space. It's wrong headed IMO to say it's one or the other.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I agree with this analysis
Surveying the scene now, we see every possibility of Europe seeing the election of its first far-right head of state since 1945 in Austria in December, Marine Le Pen consistently leading the polling for the first round of the 2017 French Presidential election, UKIP eating into Labour’s core vote in England and Wales, the AfD as the biggest working class party in Berlin and the populist right climbing all over the furniture across northern, western and central Europe. The financial crash of 2008 and subsequent chronic economic crisis has stripped the political centre of its vestigial credibility, but it is the right who are filling the vacuum in working class political representation. The antecedents of the IWCA had as their mission statement ‘to oppose fascism physically and ideologically’. Cable Street was one of the inspirations for the physical struggle, a struggle that has been won – for now. If the current wave of populist nationalism is to be beaten back, the struggle now has to be political: no less than to reconstitute the working class as a political fighting force and the prime agent of radical political change, independent, democratic and beholden to no-one but itself. The challenge is considerable, but the risks of failing to meet it are clear.
The only quibble I had was it saying 'the physical struggle is over (for now)*'. Perhaps they meant 'the physical struggle is of secondary importance' , I don't know. However we do have both fascists and right wing nationalists trying to continue the physical struggle at the moment. Not particularly effectively perhaps right now but the ambition is there.
*Well done butchers
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yes, it is not an argument against militant anti-fascism. Well spotted. You see, I was not making such an argument. You say it's an argument for filling the space. What would you do, if you're working in that space and the fash come along and fill it themselves or offer themselves as competitors?
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
A spanking m'lord?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no, i don't think there's any way to knock sense into you.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
it is the 2nd best book on anti-fascism tho.
I'd have to think carefully about nominating No1 depending on the size of bunfight I was up for.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Is that the whole Squadron incident that some on libertarian left felt was 'mis-managed' ?
Anju
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing many, if not all, of you are aware of this. Thought I would post in case not as I was wondering if this is significant enough to indicate a potential move back from political to street activity. Despite not knowing anything about AF stuff I agreed with butchersapron for once, but seeing this, especially the raperefugees banner I would be in favour of petrol bombing the lot of them.Cambridgeshire neo-Nazi rally billed as 'private party' - BBC News
Similar threads
