Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action

[redcogs]

I don't want to derail this thread too much, and I recognise JD's contribution as an IO, but Andreas Nagliatti was a good IO too, and he went on to become an 'Industrial Relations' Manager for Fiat Italy, and Roger Rosewell also a good IO went on to become an adviser to Dame Shirley Porter.

Edit: I don't remember JD being involved in the ant-fascist stuff apart from asking for volunteers to go to the Lewisham paper sale in '76. When the Right To Work March came to London (1978?) there was a NF march in Shoreditch. The Inner East London District wanted to ask the RTW marchers to support the counter-mobilisation, but JD wouldn't allow it, claiming it was a diversion. A lot of the RTW marchers turned out regardless.

Like you tony.c, i'm torn over whether or not to derail the thread, but like an unscratched itch.. i have to offer an observation.

There appear to be several former swp comrades hanging about on here. Presumably, since moving on, some will have developed lives somewhat different to being the permanently dedicated rabble-rousers that they were.

If i'm correct on this, i'd guess that some among that number will today hold managerial functions, which in all probability are a contradiction of their previously held socialist principles. You offer Rosewell and Nagliatti as convincing examples of sell out types. But, to be fair, those individuals have pretty decisively moved on to different terrain - and must wrestle with themselves as a consequence. Deason,(and maybe several others) on the other hand, may or may not be in such a category - dependent i suppose on how one politically regards employment within local authority administration. Such matters are a bit of a minefield though aren't they? As something of a non aligned non active armchair type myself, i wouldn't want to be drawn too deeply into passing judgement on how people who are no longer holding on to actual political affiliations ought to behave, or how they should be politically regarded.

Also, as i recall it, such matters were never that straightforward even within 'the revolutionary party'. As an example, i recall from my swp days (a couple of decades since), that it was not uncommon to run across party members who held managerial roles as jobs, (and were also Unison members). Whenever such matters were raised for debate, citing the evident problem of split loyalties, there were definite attempts to slap down any meaningful discussion.

i suppose what i'm saying, in a very wishywashyliberal way, is that it is too easy to judge people when they are no longer engaging directly in the class struggle - and maybe instead, their record from when they were properly involved ought to be the important factor? Not all former activists are necessarilly traitors to the honourable cause of human emancipation are they?

 

[TopCat]

This thread meanders all over the place so I would not call the above a derail. If only we could free the thread of the wince inducing puns!

As for the above post, I think this could make a good discussion on another thread. <says an ex Class War type who now has been a manager of sorts for a decade>

 

[DaveCinzano]

As for the above post, I think this could make a good discussion on another thread. <says an ex Class War type who now has been a manager of sorts for a decade>

Let's run it up the flagpole and see if it flies. Any volunteers to action this?

 

[TopCat]

Let's run it up the flagpole and see if it flies. Any volunteers to action this?

You!

 

[DaveCinzano]

You!

YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME

 

[TopCat]

it was a simple delegation.

 

[DaveCinzano]

it was a simple delegation.

That's no way to talk about the Unite reps

 

[tony.c]

redcogs. I don't have a problem with former 'revolutionaries' becoming managers. It's their decision. It's not something I would do. But as you say, although the swp used to be against members taking management (and full time union) positions, many teacher members (including Mrs Cliff) were Heads of Department which are management positions as I understand it.
But my reservations about Deason were also for other reasons which I don't really want to go into on here.

 

[Red Storm]

redcogs. I don't have a problem with former 'revolutionaries' becoming managers. It's their decision. It's not something I would do. But as you say, although the swp used to be against members taking management (and full time union) positions, many teacher members (including Mrs Cliff) were Heads of Department which are management positions as I understand it.
But my reservations about Deason were also for other reasons which I don't really want to go into on here.

I don't really see why it's a big issue either.

 

[Pickman's model]

tbh i'd be more concerned about professed revolutionaries taking management roles than former ones. in fact i'm not too keen on anyone taking management roles.

 

[Pickman's model]

it was a simple delegation.

so many delegations are

 

[redcogs]

redcogs. I don't have a problem with former 'revolutionaries' becoming managers. It's their decision. It's not something I would do. But as you say, although the swp used to be against members taking management (and full time union) positions, many teacher members (including Mrs Cliff) were Heads of Department which are management positions as I understand it.
But my reservations about Deason were also for other reasons which I don't really want to go into on here.

Fair enough on Deason tony.c.

And just for the record, i'm not some groupie for JD, i just remember being quite impressed by his public image at the time when i had initially come into party activity.

The swp has had housing and social work managers, and HoD's as you have pointed out. i've often wondered where senior academics sit on the spine which runs from lower to higher order. i certainly remember raising an eyebrow when i became aware that one such comrade did not discourage students from using the socially stratifying term of address when in conversation, even in social circumstances, (ie "Professor")! How sad is that. Presumably it will become 'comrade professor' at the dawn of the new jerusalem..

 

[Pickman's model]

i've often wondered where senior academics sit on the spine which runs from lower to higher order.

on the fence

 

[Pickman's model]

Fair enough on Deason tony.c.

The swp has had housing and social work managers, and HoD's as you have pointed out. i've often wondered where senior academics sit on the spine which runs from lower to higher order. i certainly remember raising an eyebrow when i became aware that one such comrade did not discourage students from using the socially stratifying term of address when in conversation, even in social circumstances, (ie "Professor")! How sad is that. Presumably it will become 'comrade professor' at the dawn of the new jerusalem..

comrade professor SIR i think you'll find

 

[TopCat]

tbh i'd be more concerned about professed revolutionaries taking management roles than former ones. in fact i'm not too keen on anyone taking management roles.

It's a bit different in the UK compared to elsewhere. Professed revolutionaries so often do not amount to much. Lets face it, the revolutionary left here are not sitting on top of arms caches in cammo gear. A revolutionary state of mind? Is that what it amounts to? If so, marching into the institutions is not as much of a absurd contradiction as it would be elsewhere.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's a bit different in the UK compared to elsewhere. Professed revolutionaries so often do not amount to much. Lets face it, the revolutionary left here are not sitting on top of arms caches in cammo gear. A revolutionary state of mind? Is that what it amounts to? If so, marching into the institutions is not as much of a absurd contradiction as it would be elsewhere.

i just don't like management where i work, is all.

 

[The39thStep]

I don't really see why it's a big issue either.

Thank heavens

 

[tony.c]

i just don't like management where i work, is all.

I never liked managers, although some of them were ok as people. But things are different these days, in the 80's and even 90's frontline managers could often be fairly friendly and reasonable. Many in the public sector did see their role as improving services. Also there was an element of 'empire building' where they wanted to expand the staffing in their sections to boost their own status, and possibly their management grade.
These days with ongoing cuts they are judged on how much they can 'save' financially, which inevitably means cutting jobs and hourage and dealing more harshly with their staff. They have to implement decisions from those above them rather than making their own decisions.
Anyway this should probably be in a thread of it's own.

 

[Red Storm]

Thank heavens

 

[malatesta32]

redcogs. I don't have a problem with former 'revolutionaries' becoming managers. It's their decision. It's not something I would do. But as you say, although the swp used to be against members taking management (and full time union) positions, many teacher members (including Mrs Cliff) were Heads of Department which are management positions as I understand it.
But my reservations about Deason were also for other reasons which I don't really want to go into on here.

my branch had a pretty strict nothing higher than shop stewards level (in 2 of the major local factories). one guy got booted out cos he went for the SU president. sound geezer and could actually have been pretty effective in that position.

 

[Casually Red]

tin of this and a heavy-duty carrier bag... lethal and legal

less trinny and susannah but even more lethal was this bad boy

and when lobbed from a passing car ..at an unsuspecting Linfield/Rangers supporter for example..could be absolutely lethal

 

[sunny jim]

This might have been touched on before on this super long thread but isnt it weird how the 43 Group, who were no different to RA/AFA in their militant anti fascist approach and methods, are lauded as hero's while AFA/RA are vilified by mainstream press as well as large sections of the left. Vidal Sassoon was with the 43 Group and even the Daily Mail gives up good write up for his actions of violently fucking the black shirts off the streets. Maybe its a time thing the same as violent riots happening miles away from the UK generally getting a better write up than they do if they happen here. And maybe RA/AFA will be treated as heros in years to come as well, but I wont be holding my breath.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Sassoon-cut-Britains-fascist-thugs-size.html

 

[barney_pig]

This might have been touched on before on this super long thread but isnt it weird how the 43 Group, who were no different to RA/AFA in their militant anti fascist approach and methods, are lauded as hero's while AFA/RA are vilified by mainstream press as well as large sections of the left. Vidal Sassoon was with the 43 Group and even the Daily Mail gives up good write up for his actions of violently fucking the black shirts off the streets. Maybe its a time thing the same as violent riots happening miles away from the UK generally getting a better write up than they do if they happen here. And maybe RA/AFA will be treated as heros in years to come as well, but I wont be holding my breath.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Sassoon-cut-Britains-fascist-thugs-size.html

No comments being accepted, and all apparently deleted... Surely nobody was indelicate to mention the mail frontpage of the 15th January 1934?

 

[Red Storm]

This might have been touched on before on this super long thread but isnt it weird how the 43 Group, who were no different to RA/AFA in their militant anti fascist approach and methods, are lauded as hero's while AFA/RA are vilified by mainstream press as well as large sections of the left. Vidal Sassoon was with the 43 Group and even the Daily Mail gives up good write up for his actions of violently fucking the black shirts off the streets. Maybe its a time thing the same as violent riots happening miles away from the UK generally getting a better write up than they do if they happen here. And maybe RA/AFA will be treated as heros in years to come as well, but I wont be holding my breath.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Sassoon-cut-Britains-fascist-thugs-size.html

I think the 43 Group gets a good write up now because it was a group mostly made of Jews fighting back against fascism. So it's easy for paint it without raising and questions about class.

But AFA/RA were made up of mostly white working class people. Plus RA was political outside of anti-fascism, so it's not single issue and easy to put in a box. I think that's why AFA is often dismissed with simple words such as thugs and hooligans.

I think Nigel Copsey has seen beyond simplifications of AFA/RA though.

 

[malatesta32]

yes i was about say if you look at how 43 Group were marketed - with the star of david - and you look at afa - with the skinheads with hammers stickers etc - one is a 'religious group' fighting against persecution whereas AFA were a bunch of squaddist renegades, class war anarchists, casuals and red skinheads. 43 Group can be seen as self-defence, AFA didnt disguise their militancy. this in terms of press etc.

 

[malatesta32]

well the malatesta' book, in tandem with BTF, will go someway to redressing this balance.

 

[sunny jim]

I think the 43 Group gets a good write up now because it was a group mostly made of Jews fighting back against fascism. So it's easy for paint it without raising and questions about class.

But AFA/RA were made up of mostly white working class people. Plus RA was political outside of anti-fascism, so it's not single issue and easy to put in a box. I think that's why AFA is often dismissed with simple words such as thugs and hooligans.

I think Nigel Copsey has seen beyond simplifications of AFA/RA though.

I think its also to do with glorifying the past demonstrations and riots but vilifying present day ones, unless of course they happen miles away. The media and the liberal left are all guilty of this.

 

[Red Storm]

I think its also to do with glorifying the past demonstrations and riots but vilifying present day ones, unless of course they happen miles away. The media and the liberal left are all guilty of this.

Yeah definitely. I think AFA's pamphlet Heroes or Villains? was making the same case.

 

[butchersapron]

43 group were explicitly not anti-state . They wanted the state to act and criminalise fascism. They can be seen as pro-state anti-fascists who were just making up a temporary shortfall in the states reaction/behaviour/motivation. No so with those who came later. (And that is not to denigrate the physical and moral bravery of 43 group members).

 

[tony.c]

This might have been touched on before on this super long thread but isnt it weird how the 43 Group, who were no different to RA/AFA in their militant anti fascist approach and methods, are lauded as hero's while AFA/RA are vilified by mainstream press as well as large sections of the left. Vidal Sassoon was with the 43 Group and even the Daily Mail gives up good write up for his actions of violently fucking the black shirts off the streets. Maybe its a time thing the same as violent riots happening miles away from the UK generally getting a better write up than they do if they happen here. And maybe RA/AFA will be treated as heros in years to come as well, but I wont be holding my breath.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Sassoon-cut-Britains-fascist-thugs-size.html

The Radio 4 program, A Rage in Dalston, was repeated on Radio 4 last year. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be available on the R4 online Archives. It is worth listening to if it is on again. It ended with one of the 43 Group members recalling how years later while on a Saturday night out with his wife, he recognised a former leading BUF activist on the same bus. He waited until the fascist went to the bus platform, then came up behind him, grabbed the handrails and swung both feet forcefully into the fash's back, propelling him off the moving bus and leaving him in a crumpled heap in the road. His wife wasn't amused!

When we were involved in weekly confrontations with the NF in Brick Lane in the mid-70s, a former 43 Group member, Joe G., would sometimes turn out with us. He was a big guy, but seemed old to us then, though he was probably only in his mid-fifties.
After one 'political discussion' with some fash, we could hear police sirens approaching. We started moving off, when Joe said to hang on a minute. He went back to the prone fash, and started booting one of them again! We had to go back and drag him away. When we regrouped in a pub, Joe pulled out his wallet with pictures of his grandchildren and told us we had to keep the world safe for kids like these. He said he liked us because we did what we said, unlike that Paul Holborrow who was all talk. The only thing was though that we should take iron bars and break their arms and legs next time!