Attacking politicians? Unpicking the ethical dimensions.

[chilango]

Farage has been attacked twice this campaign already.

He's kicking up a big fuss.

Is chucking rocks at him morally equivalent to chucking milkshakes at him?

Are either "the thin end of the wedge" leading to more 'Jo Cox's?

...and yet, D-Day. A war where millions died - ostensibly to defeat Fascism. Perhaps chucking rocks at fascist politicians is morally ok?

...but then I look with horror at the Mexican elections and the use of violence and assassination there.

Is Farage right? If not, where do we draw the line, if at all?

 

[Cloo]

I think rocks is dodgy - the whole point of milkshakes is that it's silly and essentially harmless but sort of humiliating. Getting into objects and actions that might cause physical harm is taking the low road and from the playbooks of people who support Farage and will do more harm than good. Farage is a shithead but potentially physically harmful attacks are counterproductive.

 

[spitfire]

Looked like coffee cups from a bin to me, did anyone confirm they were rocks?

 

[spitfire]

It's a fair question overall but take a look at this.

 

[maomao]

I'm definitely more worried about it being counterproductive than I am about him coming to harm. Eggs, milkshakes, paint etc. are definitely fair game and given the amount of shit a protestor doing so is going to land themselves in, I think unlikely to get out of control.

 

[chilango]

Looked like coffee cups from a bin to me, did anyone confirm they were rocks?

The Farage thread suggests 'wet cement'.

Which, without wanting to bogged down is kinda halfway between rocks and milkshakes - like fluffy snowballs versus icy ones with bits of gravel in!

Cloo 's point about humiliation ok, physical harm not ok seems one possible way to distinguish.

 

[nogojones]

I'd like to think I cared about the welfare of everyone, and I've searched my soul and found a big gaping chasm when it comes to my feelings about what gets chucked at politicians.

I'm more worried about the welfare of anyone getting caught

 

[spitfire]

I walked right past him once and couldn't even summon up the courage to call him a cunt but there were 3 big geezers with him and I was on my own.

I agree with maomao and Cloo.

 

[Yossarian]

Not sure where the line should be drawn - eggs, milkshakes, etc. are fine, then you start getting to molasses, mud, and peanut butter, then eventually bricks, rocks, etc. - some experiments should be carried out to determine the correct Farage Viscosity Index

 

[redsquirrel]

I'm definitely more worried about it being counterproductive than I am about him coming to harm. Eggs, milkshakes, paint etc. are definitely fair game and given the amount of shit a protestor doing so is going to land themselves in, I think unlikely to get out of control.

Aye for me it is strategic and tactical question as much (if not more so) as an ethical one.

EDIT: Not a politician but I've no ethical problem with the RAFs execution of Schleyer - it was a bad decision that was driven by bad politics but in that case no ethical qualms at all

 

[A380]

Milk shakes eggs etc OK, ridicule innit. Though if the thrower gets caught they have to accept the legal consequences.

Rocks and anything likely to cause injury, no, the sympathy vote and a whole other world of political violence. If the man frog is picture covered in milkshake that damages him with many people, If he'd been hit by a stone and pictured bleeding then that would gain him votes.

ETA, but as redsquirrel says, this is mostly a tactical choice not an ethical one.

 

[chilango]

For those considering the matter tactically...think of a more dangerous politician than the buffoon Farage (I dunno, Starmer ?) where ridicule is not enough... Can you see a conflict between strategic and ethical considerations of attacking them on the campaign trail?

 

[emanymton]

I'm definitely more worried about it being counterproductive than I am about him coming to harm. Eggs, milkshakes, paint etc. are definitely fair game and given the amount of shit a protestor doing so is going to land themselves in, I think unlikely to get out of control.

It is a strategic rather than moral question the level of violence needs to rise to meet the level of threat posed. I doubt many of here would have worried about people lobbing bricks at Nick Griffin at his peak, but Farage is not the same kettle of fish so would not be a good strategic move I think.

There is also an important, but not clear, distinction between acts of collective protest and individual acts of terror such as the Murder of Jo Cox.

 

[hitmouse]

Yeah, I suppose there are some tricky questions there, as much to do with how you define Farage as with how you measure the difference between milkshake and wet cement. For instance, the likes of Mosley and Tyndall had to put up with a lot worse than a bit of wet cement, but then they represented different politics to that of Farage, with a much more direct link to a physical force tradition of their own. Does Farage represent something substantially outside of the mainstream conservative tradition in this country, and if so, does that mean that it's OK to throw things at him that it wouldn't be OK to throw at Rees-Mogg or Gove? (That sounds like a joke but I think it is actually a serious question on some level). (And emanymton beat me to it with a less longwinded post while I was writing this one.)
And, at the same time as the chin-stroking side of me thinks there is a real ethical question here, the (realist? pragmatist? I dunno, Nietzschean or Spinozan?) side of me thinks... this is happening, it's a thing you have to deal with, just saying "throwing stuff at Farage is bad" is useless unless you have an actual strategy to change the conditions that lead to people feeling the need to throw stuff at Farage.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Morally 100% justifiable to throw rocks at a man whose actions and rhetoric are intended to cause harm to the innocent on a large scale.

Tactically, it looks bad. And he'd arguably be harder to defeat if he was dead.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I'm uneasy about any sort of physical attack.

 

[Yossarian]

And he'd arguably be harder to defeat if he was dead.

"If you strike me down, I shall become more gammony than you can possibly imagine"

 

[Pickman's model]

"If you strike me down, I shall become more gammony than you can possibly imagine"

Throw pineapples at him. Tinned.

 

[nottsgirl]

I’m ok with milkshakes.

 

[Pickman's model]

Tbh I think people should throw stuff at him after 4.7 as well as now, he should be forced to cower within his house for fear of getting milkshaked or better

 

[Pickman's model]

I’m ok with milkshakes.

Doesn't go so well with gammon tho as pineapple

 

[Dogsauce]

Throwing stuff at Farage: not OK
Throwing Farage at stuff (a threshing machine, a seagull flying off the cliffs of dover, an antenna on top of the Mendip transmitter): Less certain…

 

[bemused]

I disagree with attacking people, even the likes of Farage.

 

[Dogsauce]

More seriously, ignore Farage and go after those funding and promoting the European authoritarian far right project. Preferably with something larger than a brick. They have blood on their hands.

 

[stavros]

If you react properly you can earn some respect.

 

[ska invita]

I think stick to milkshakes for all British far right, make it tradition

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

These are people who are more racist than the current racists in power.
If I was them I would take stock of the fact I am getting rocks thrown at me. Maybe it’s something I’m doing wrong?
Fuck em. I’m a better shot than that guy.

And I do think it’s an appropriate response to Nigel Farage. Get back in your hole Nazi.

 

[TopCat]

It’s ok when left on right, left on centre, left on liberals, left on opportunistic wankers. There is no flip side.

 

[kebabking]

In ethical terms I could come up with good justifications both pro and anti - which means it's complicated, nuanced, probably contradictory, and unsatisfactory.

In purely practical terms it's pretty easy - if someone is an enemy, seeks to to harm you/yours so much that they earn that title, then crack on: but by declaring open season on them, you explicitly give the nod for it being open season on your side as well.

For domestic political adversaries, tax evasion and unsavoury images on their hard drives are the best courses of action.

 

[Serge Forward]

I’m ok with milkshakes.

Frozen