Scum Politicians . . .

[nogojones]

And what about those crap window cleaners who do the upper stories with one of those long poles with a hose up them rather than a ladder. Obviously the windows don’t get cleaned as well but, given they haven’t got a ladder, should we embrace them as horny handed working class heroes ( no ladder) or lick spittle full blown capitalist oppressors ( cos that pole with a hose up it thing?).

Lot's of them are employed by IES or whoever, so most don't own and control the long poles and vans they drive. They are just the fleshy pole holding tool for the bosses (apart from when you slip them a tenner to do a quick subcontract off the books for you - when they become petite bourgeois for 15 minutes)

 

[Rob Ray]

Part of the confusion is that the precise definition "proletariat" and the very wibbly modern public usage of "working class" (often as not including self employed plumbers but not worse-paid, institutionally-employed teachers) are often used interchangeably when people are being a bit lazy, flowery with the rhetoric, or don't know the difference.

 

[maomao]

Part of the confusion is that the precise definition "proletariat" and the very wibbly modern public usage of "working class" (often as not including self employed plumbers but not worse-paid, institutionally-employed teachers) are often used interchangeably when people are being a bit lazy, flowery with the rhetoric, or don't know the difference.

What is the difference?

 

[Tanya1982]

So, after all that, who was wanked off into a champagne glass - and by who, how, and why?

 

[Rob Ray]

What is the difference?

In one case, the window cleaner who owns their tools is not proletariat. In the other the vast majority of people would (as shown above) scoff at the idea they are not working class.

 

[JimW]

A number of reasons, some technical. First, if they’re self-employed, they’re like artisans or trades people. They are not wage-labourers. Surplus value is created when workers labour longer than the hours it takes to reproduce the value equivalent to their labour-power. When a capitalists purchases labour-power and sells commodities with the value added in the labour process, they are seeking to maximise the surplus value and produce profits.

The self-employed window cleaner is likely to see themselves as a business person. This, to Marx, makes them tend to be reactionary: they want to maintain their position (on a low rung) of the middle class.

The employed window cleaner is likely to aspire to a round of their own one day. This puts them in a similar position to an artisan’s apprentice. Do they have much in common with the proletariat? Of course they do. And as with the historical example of the barbers in Barcelona (and maybe Seville for all I know, but unfortunately my only knowledge is of Barcelona), who during the Spanish Revolution were in the majority aligned with the anarchists and saw their interests as aligned with the working class, maybe window cleaners are all social revolutionaries, but technically they are not proletarian.

Itinerant cobblers featured heavily in the early history of the English working class and radical movement IIRC. Suppose they'd be in a similar class position.

 

[maomao]

In one case, the window cleaner who owns their tools is not proletariat. In the other the vast majority of people would (as shown above) scoff at the idea they are not working class.

There is no difference between the terms in Marxist or economic terms. The difference is that working class is an identity which I would imagine my (ladder and a bucket owning) window cleaner shares.

Hence my original assertion that by putting the interests of men with tools in vans ahead of the interests of people breathing air (most of whom are working class) AmateurAgitator is engaged in the politics of identity.

 

[Rob Ray]

The practical implications are predictable in some ways (eg. not being an employee will often impact on how say, you view collective strike action). But they can be mixed/confused in others (your social relationships will often but not always be affected by your economic weight, eg. a doctor employed by the NHS will tend to consider themselves above the rest of the proletariat and associate with other wealthy people, the reverse may be true for a petit bourgeois window cleaner, and a journalist may consider themselves doctor level, while being relatively low pay).

 

[Rob Ray]

There is no difference between the terms in Marxist or economic terms.

That's why I specifically said "very wibbly modern public usage" for the latter.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

There is no difference between the terms in Marxist or economic terms. The difference is that working class is an identity which I would imagine my (ladder and a bucket owning) window cleaner shares.

Hence my original assertion that by putting the interests of men with tools in vans ahead of the interests of people breathing air (most of whom are working class) AmateurAgitator is engaged in the politics of identity.

I can't be arsed with any of this shit today but class is an economic relationship not a fucking identity.

 

[andysays]

A number of reasons, some technical. First, if they’re self-employed, they’re like artisans or trades people. They are not wage-labourers. Surplus value is created when workers labour longer than the hours it takes to reproduce the value equivalent to their labour-power. When a capitalists purchases labour-power and sells commodities with the value added in the labour process, they are seeking to maximise the surplus value and produce profits.

The self-employed window cleaner is likely to see themselves as a business person. This, to Marx, makes them tend to be reactionary: they want to maintain their position (on a low rung) of the middle class.

The employed window cleaner is likely to aspire to a round of their own one day. This puts them in a similar position to an artisan’s apprentice. Do they have much in common with the proletariat? Of course they do. And as with the historical example of the barbers in Barcelona (and maybe Seville for all I know, but unfortunately my only knowledge is of Barcelona), who during the Spanish Revolution were in the majority aligned with the anarchists and saw their interests as aligned with the working class, maybe window cleaners are all social revolutionaries, but technically they are not proletarian.

Thanks for your reply. There's two points I'd like to pick up on.

First, lots of workers are employed in jobs which don't involved their direct exploitation by a capitalist employer, most obviously those in public services. As far as I'm aware, this category of employment didn't exist in Marx's time, at least to the extent it does today, but those workers still have the same basic material interests as those whose surplus value is extracted in the classic Marxist model.

And second, I don't think saying that

the self-employed window cleaner is likely to see themselves as a business person

or that

the employed window cleaner is likely to aspire to a round of their own one day

is particularly helpful. Even if that generalisation is correct (and I'm not convinced it is, at least not for all), people's class position isn't determined by how they see themselves, or what their aspirations are, but by their material reality, the basic need to sell their labour to support themselves.

 

[A380]

My uncle, a window cleaner (there are four window cleaners in my family) has one of them and they're a fairly big investment. He considers himself a businessman and previously was a shopkeeper. He did use a ladder for a while but he fell off it and broke his back hence the skooshy pole thing.


I was brought up to understand that the petit bourgeoisie had some interests in common with the working class and some in common with the bourgeoisie which always made sense to me. A window cleaner with nothing more than a bucket and a chamois is an extreme example of that being at the far end of a fairly long spectrum but it's no less true.

So even owning a bucket means you are no longer working class? Harsh but fair.

What if it had a hole in dear maomao , a hole in his bucket dear maomao a hole?

 

[A380]

...

But it's been suggested that even those in the latter group aren't proletarian, and I'm trying to get an explanation of why.

Cos they own a fucking bucket, obvs.

 

[A380]

What is the difference?

Owning a bucket.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

So even owning a bucket means you are no longer working class? Harsh but fair.

i now see this in the light of the class struggle

 

[Sasaferrato]

It is stupid to tell trades workers to take the Tube though, innit? They gotta carry materials too. I'd love to see an MP try to carry a load of tools and a few sheets of gypsum board on the Northern Line.

You would need a long telescope to see an MP doing any kind of useful work.

 

[A380]

Mikhail Bakunin Says:​

.


Michail Bakunin? My pail Bucketin more like

I'm here all week, bring your family.

 

[A380]

19th century Milk Maids. Marx's class enemy number one, some had two buckets and a stick.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Blimey, so much "but the Tories" on here shows that times have changed here on urban. Tory arseholes are obviously a given... but Lammy's still a cunt and Labour is not on our side.

Who is then?

Is there any point in embracing a political stance that is never going to amount to anything? A waste of time and energy surely?

You are never going to change the system from outside it, but if you refuse to engage, how are you going to bring about change?

 

[Sasaferrato]

This is all nonsense though, because David Lammy didn't say that tradespersons carrying tools and equipment should use the tube, did he?

You seem to have been taken in by some clickbaity talk radio, from a broadcaster opposing legislation that's trying to reduce the amount of air pollution that millions of Londoners have to breathe all day.

The London air, whilst far from ideal, has improved over time.

 

[A380]

I can't be arsed with any of this shit today but class is an economic relationship not a fucking identity.

You would say that; I bet you own a bucket.

 

[WouldBe]

They’re not proletariat. They should identify with the interests of the working class. But they’re not proletariat.

But they are their own boss so not working class.

 

[maomao]

I can't be arsed with any of this shit today but class is an economic relationship not a fucking identity.

Well act like it then and stop amplifying petty right wing wedge issues because you think they affect the working class.

 

[Supine]

You would say that; I bet you own a bucket.

He lives in a commune where he and the bucket have equal status. He would never exploit the poor tub of plastic.

 

[Pickman's model]

You would say that; I bet you own a bucket.

and doubtless a spade

 

[Pickman's model]

I can't be arsed with any of this shit today but class is an economic relationship not a fucking identity.

class is both, see for example bourdieu's distinction and 7.4: What is Class Identity?.

 

[maomao]

people's class position isn't determined by how they see themselves, or what their aspirations are, but by their material reality, the basic need to sell their labour to support themselves.

Not in classical Marxist theory where it is determined by the relation to the means of production. Besides, your version pulls in lots of people at the top end that I would consider middle class.

 

[Yossarian]

19th century Milk Maids. Marx's class enemy number one, some had two buckets and a stick.

View attachment 360925

I doubt she owned the buckets, or the cows.

"Milk maids of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your yokes"

 

[Pickman's model]

Who is then?

Is there any point in embracing a political stance that is never going to amount to anything? A waste of time and energy surely?

You are never going to change the system from outside it, but if you refuse to engage, how are you going to bring about change?

have you ever heard the term 'self-fulfilling prophecy'? of course you're never going to change the system from outside if you start with the belief that you are never going to change the system from outside.

 

[Pickman's model]

I doubt she owned the buckets, or the cows.

"Milk maids of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your yokes"

cf egg farmers unite, you have nothing to lose but your yolks