Scum Politicians . . .

[A380]

Is he the one who was wanked off into a champagne glass?

What is this story? I saw the other thread but didn't want to google it (even in 'Buy a Wedding Anniversary Present' mode).

 

[danny la rouge]

What is this story? I saw the other thread but didn't want to google it (even in 'Buy a Wedding Anniversary Present' mode).

He’s the Stoke Tory MP, right?

 

[Ranbay]

Is he the one who was wanked off into a champagne glass?

yesterday he said the 200 kids missing from refugee hotels shouldn't have come here illegally ....

 

[danny la rouge]

yesterday he said the 200 kids missing from refugee hotels shouldn't have come here illegally ....

Jesus. What a cunt.

 

[danny la rouge]

I’ve had a look for the story. Found this: 200 asylum-seeking children go missing – Tory MP says they should not have come to UK illegally

 

[danny la rouge]

Alternative source on Twitter:

 

[steeplejack]

Jonathan Gullis. A suppurating verucca of a man. Literally not a single redeeming feature.

 

[andysays]

Well, the window cleaner was the example my dad used when it was drummed into me as a child.

The idea that a window cleaner isn't working class/proletarian if they own a ladder, bucket and chamois leather is a bit ridiculous IMO.

They are still essentially selling their labour.

 

[teuchter]

Thats no doubt what he meant though, or atleast those are probably the ramifications of what he's supporting.

"Probably"?
It's fairly simple - the ULEZ legislation means that certain higher-polluting vehicles pay a charge to enter London.
Need to use a van? Drive a compliant one, or pay the charge.
Don't need to use a van? Drive a compliant van, pay the charge, or use public transport.
No tradesperson is compelled to carry a ladder on the tube. That's purely a strawman/stunt devised by LBC. I would suggest, driven by an ideological opposition to restrictions on private vehicle use.

 

[Supine]

The idea that a window cleaner isn't working class/proletarian if they own a ladder, bucket and chamois leather is a bit ridiculous IMO.

They are still essentially selling their labour.

How about if they set themselves up as a ltd company and only clean bank windows in the city for 750 quid per day?

 

[andysays]

How about if they set themselves up as a ltd company and only clean bank windows in the city for 750 quid per day?

Is this a genuine example, or just a hypothetical one?

 

[Supine]

Is this a genuine example, or just a hypothetical one?

Hypothetical. I don’t know any windows cleaners!

 

[danny la rouge]

The idea that a window cleaner isn't working class/proletarian if they own a ladder, bucket and chamois leather is a bit ridiculous IMO.

They are still essentially selling their labour.

They’re not proletariat. They should identify with the interests of the working class. But they’re not proletariat.

 

[andysays]

They’re not proletariat. They should identify with the interests of the working class. But they’re not proletariat.

I'd be interested to hear an explanation of why not because, as I said, IMO they are essentially selling their labour to the various people whose windows they clean.

 

[A380]

So in the ongoing attempt to define working class for Urban we now have a window cleaner without a ladder being working class whereas one with a ladder is petit bourgeois. Cool.

But. I live in a bungalow and my window cleaner is old and only does bungalows now. He used to do houses with a ladder. So is he now working class or does he remain petit bourgeois- I haven’t asked him but I assume he still has his ladder down the side of his house.

 

[brogdale]

I'd be interested to hear an explanation of why not because, as I said, IMO they are essentially selling their labour to the various people whose windows they clean.

Sole proprietors obviously do own the MoP and, around my way, that often seems to be quite capital intensive vans rigged with water tanks etc. They often employ others, as well; clearly petty bourgeois

 

[A380]

So in the ongoing attempt to define working class for Urban we now have a window cleaner without a ladder being working class whereas one with a ladder is petit bourgeois. Cool.

But. I live in a bungalow and my window cleaner is old and only does bungalows now. He used to do houses with a ladder. So is he now working class or does he remain petit bourgeois- I haven’t asked him but I assume he still has his ladder down the side of his house.

And what about those crap window cleaners who do the upper stories with one of those long poles with a hose up them rather than a ladder. Obviously the windows don’t get cleaned as well but, given they haven’t got a ladder, should we embrace them as horny handed working class heroes ( no ladder) or lick spittle full blown capitalist oppressors ( cos that pole with a hose up it thing?).

 

[Pickman's model]

So in the ongoing attempt to define working class for Urban we now have a window cleaner without a ladder being working class whereas one with a ladder is petit bourgeois. Cool.

But. I live in a bungalow and my window cleaner is old and only does bungalows now. He used to do houses with a ladder. So is he now working class or does he remain petit bourgeois- I haven’t asked him but I assume he still has his ladder down the side of his house.

what about a window cleaner with those long things that allow them to clean up to say the second or third floor without ascending a ladder?

 

[Pickman's model]

And what about those crap window cleaners who do the upper stories with one of those long poles with a hose up them rather than a ladder. Obviously the windows don’t get cleaned as well but, given they haven’t got a ladder, should be embrace them as horny handed working class heroes ( no ladder) or lick spittle full blown capitalist oppressors ( cos that pole with a hose up it thing?).

what about a window cleaner with those long things that allow them to clean up to say the second or third floor without ascending a ladder?

brilliant minds

 

[A380]

what about a window cleaner with those long things that allow them to clean up to say the second or third floor without ascending a ladder?

Second or third floor? Upper middle class obvs.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Scum Politicians

Definition of TAUTOLOGY

needless repetition of an idea, statement, or word; an instance of such repetition; a statement that is true by virtue of its logical form alone… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Elpenor]

So in the ongoing attempt to define working class for Urban we now have a window cleaner without a ladder being working class whereas one with a ladder is petit bourgeois. Cool.

But. I live in a bungalow and my window cleaner is old and only does bungalows now. He used to do houses with a ladder. So is he now working class or does he remain petit bourgeois- I haven’t asked him but I assume he still has his ladder down the side of his house.

So was George Formby working class or not?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

So was George Formby working class or not?

depends if he owned the banjo

 

[A380]

First against the fucking wall in AA's communist utopia.

 

[Elpenor]

View attachment 360916

First against the fucking wall in AA's communist utopia.

Straight to the gulag as punishment (for the other prisoners)

 

[maomao]

And what about those crap window cleaners who do the upper stories with one of those long poles with a hose up them rather than a ladder. Obviously the windows don’t get cleaned as well but, given they haven’t got a ladder, should we embrace them as horny handed working class heroes ( no ladder) or lick spittle full blown capitalist oppressors ( cos that pole with a hose up it thing?).

My uncle, a window cleaner (there are four window cleaners in my family) has one of them and they're a fairly big investment. He considers himself a businessman and previously was a shopkeeper. He did use a ladder for a while but he fell off it and broke his back hence the skooshy pole thing.


I was brought up to understand that the petit bourgeoisie had some interests in common with the working class and some in common with the bourgeoisie which always made sense to me. A window cleaner with nothing more than a bucket and a chamois is an extreme example of that being at the far end of a fairly long spectrum but it's no less true.

 

[andysays]

Sole proprietors obviously do own the MoP and, around my way, that often seems to be quite capital intensive vans rigged with water tanks etc. They often employ others, as well; clearly petty bourgeois

Not all window cleaners are the same. Those who employ others and/or have

quite capital intensive vans rigged with water tanks

are clearly (at least to me) in a different category to those who simply own their own ladder, bucket and chamois leather.

But it's been suggested that even those in the latter group aren't proletarian, and I'm trying to get an explanation of why.

 

[nogojones]

ULEZ expansion is shit on people reliant on old vans but its amazing for everyone else, hard not to support it
frankly the rates trades charge for absolutely anything they should be able to buy a compliant van (petrol van 2006 or older)

I'm mostly self employed and use an old transit for work. I couldn't afford a post 2006 petrol van to be honest. I try to walk to most jobs if I don't need to transport large amounts of tools and materials, as its quicker to walk around this city than drive, but its often unavoidable.

But the nature of my job, not having a boss and competing against other self employed contractors, does put me into the classical marxist petite bourgeois class and the traditional class base for fascism, so I have zero sympathy for my plight. Cunt that I am.

I doubt my van will still be alive when ULEZ come into force down here, but I'd be fucked (or at least very skint) if I worked and lived in London, Bristol, Bath or wherever

 

[Rob Ray]

Not all window cleaners are the same. Those who employ others and/or have

are clearly (at least to me) in a different category to those who simply own their own ladder, bucket and chamois leather.

But it's been suggested that even those in the latter group aren't proletarian, and I'm trying to get an explanation of why.

It's a technical definition. There's a difference between a housecat and a tiger, they have very different relationships to humans, but both are cats. "Proletariat" is a relationship to the means of production, not necessarily a definition of how powerful you may or may not be in economic terms.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'd be interested to hear an explanation of why not because, as I said, IMO they are essentially selling their labour to the various people whose windows they clean.

A number of reasons, some technical. First, if they’re self-employed, they’re like artisans or trades people. They are not wage-labourers. Surplus value is created when workers labour longer than the hours it takes to reproduce the value equivalent to their labour-power. When a capitalists purchases labour-power and sells commodities with the value added in the labour process, they are seeking to maximise the surplus value and produce profits.

The self-employed window cleaner is likely to see themselves as a business person. This, to Marx, makes them tend to be reactionary: they want to maintain their position (on a low rung) of the middle class.

The employed window cleaner is likely to aspire to a round of their own one day. This puts them in a similar position to an artisan’s apprentice. Do they have much in common with the proletariat? Of course they do. And as with the historical example of the barbers in Barcelona (and maybe Seville for all I know, but unfortunately my only knowledge is of Barcelona), who during the Spanish Revolution were in the majority aligned with the anarchists and saw their interests as aligned with the working class, maybe window cleaners are all social revolutionaries, but technically they are not proletarian.