Scum Politicians . . .

[Karl Masks]

Yes we've established that you think I'm childish and I think you're pathetic. Moving on.

They don't "just have to not be the Tories." Nigel Farage is "not the Tories." You don't vote for the latter because it's not an improvement, and you vote for the forner because you think it is. But it's not. It's an interregnum that legitimises the Tories' claim that Britain is a functional democracy while doing nothing to change the direction of travel. And that's the best you can manage with voting.

As for waiting - what are you doing right this second? Because again, what you are not currently doing is voting.

None of this is relevant. It's just a story you're telling yourself because you can't see past your own ideology and look to the reality of the situation. I don't need Starmer to be anything. I need him to not be the Tories. Arguing that he's the same is Farage is dishonest and stupid since I said nothing of the kind as it's very clear I don't support Farage's brand of politics If you do think that I encourage you to block me

 

[Pickman's model]

The history of the Labour party, does that include the 2000s when waiting lists were much lower and people could see a doctor?

You're not getting it are you. NO one is making the claim Labour hasn't done bad things, or that they wont'. of course they will. The alternative is demonstrably worse and if you can't see that then you are lying to yourself.

Oh things were so much better in the 2000s - as long as you discount the waging aggressive war which was such a feature of the Blair years. But you don't, you just see what's in front of your nose and even that not clearly. There's something really rather unpleasant about someone who whines on about waiting lists 20 years ago and wilfully ignores the tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths wrought by the ethical foreign policy of Tony Blair. Don't suppose their lives weigh heavily with you at all

 

[Rob Ray]

I know which i prefer

But Labour aren't promising that, are they. In fact Starkers has ruled out serious investment and welcomed private involvement. Do you lot even read your preferred party's policies?

 

[Pickman's model]

You're makign the claim a Starmer led government would be worse so cite some evidence to prove this.

We know what the Tories will do if they continue. I'm not prepared to let the NHS die. You on the other hand seem ok with that because you can't hold your nose and vote. Well done you, have a gold star and go to the top of Anarchist Class

Have you read a word of shammer's plans for the nhs?

 

[Karl Masks]

I know which i prefer

View attachment 360931

It's even worse than waiting times. The Tories are deliberately letting people die because their ideology prevents them from sucking it up and negotiating. Something the RCN have said would halt the strikes. It's not even guaranteed to succeed, but the Tories refuse to do that and are now, more than I've ever seen, floating the notion of removing the right to free healthcare, just as they have the right to vote

 

[Pickman's model]

It's even worse than waiting times. The Tories are deliberately letting people die because their ideology prevents them from sucking it up and negotiating. Something the RCN have said would halt the strikes. It's not even guaranteed to succeed, but the Tories refuse to do that and are now, more than I've ever seen, floating the notion of removing the right to free healthcare, just as they have the right to vote

The tories haven't removed the right to vote,more of your hyperbollocks

 

[Karl Masks]

But Labour aren't promising that, are they. In fact Starkers has ruled out serious investment and welcomed private involvement. Do you lot even read your preferred party's policies?

Streeting said, unequivocally, he would not introduce charges.

EDIT: if introducing private finance is the only thing that will save lives then it's better than nothing. That's how bad things are. We aren't in utopia. I don't want that ideally, but there are no idea options

Now you can question his sincerity, which is fair enough. But even that is better. I'll take the possibility Streeting is being honest over the Tories who will introduce charges and continue to crash the NHS.

These are unique circumstances we are in. THings are that bad right now that arguing even slight differences between the two major parties of capital is sufficient.

 

[Rob Ray]

can't see past your own ideology and look to the reality of the situation.

You really wrote that without stopping to think "what if I'm dogmatic", huh..

 

[Pickman's model]

Streeting said, unequivocally, he would not introduce charges.

Now you can question his sincerity, which is fair enough. But even that is better. I'll take the possibility Streeting is being honest over the Tories who will introduce charges and continue to crash the NHS.

These are unique circumstances we are in. THings are that bad right now that arguing even slight differences between the two major parties of capital is sufficient.

Shammer has said he's pro-business. If you're pro-business, who are you anti?

 

[Pickman's model]

You really wrote that without stopping to think "what if I'm dogmatic", huh..

You wrote that without stopping to think

 

[Karl Masks]

You really wrote that without stopping to think "what if I'm dogmatic", huh..

The only dogma I have proposed is that we should vote for the least worst option at a time when the worse worst option is demonstrably too destructive to tolerate. So, guilty...whatever.

 

[Karl Masks]

The tories haven't removed the right to vote,more of your hyperbollocks

You need photo ID. You didn't before.

I don't recall Labour proposing that. Even when they were mooting ID cards (which actually would have been fairer, since everyone would have had to have been provided with one there would be no gerrymandering as there is with this policy)

 

[Rob Ray]

But even that is better

No, it isn't. It's part of the status quo. No parking charges for four years is a drop in the ocean followed by an eternity of parking charges which the ruling class can claim the public voted for. This low-horizon stupidity, falling for the same trick over and over again, is exactly why we're in such a fucking mess.

Elections are their turf, enabling their taking points, with the ultimate outcome being what they want, unless other pressures act to change things.

 

[andysays]

Those employed in the public sector have a relationship with the means of production as if their employer were a capitalist. It’s the same relationship.

I would agree that (most of) those employed in the public sector have the same relationship to their employer as if they were employed in a capitalist enterprise, but it doesn't appear to depend on extraction of surplus value, which suggests to me that surplus value can't be the crucial factor in someone's proletarian status.

 

[Karl Masks]

No, it isn't. It's part of the status quo. No parking charges for four years is a drop in the ocean followed by an eternity of parking charges which the ruling class can claim the public voted for. This low-horizon stupidity, falling for the same trick over and over again, is exactly why we're in such a fucking mess.

Elections are their turf, enabling their taking points, with the ultimate outcome being what they want, unless other pressures act to change things.

Blah blah blah

 

[danny la rouge]

I would agree that (most of) those employed in the public sector have the same relationship to their employer as if they were employed in a capitalist enterprise, but it doesn't appear to depend on extraction of surplus value, which suggests to me that surplus value can't be the crucial factor in someone's proletarian status.

That’s fine. I don’t have the energy today to go into the fine print of the labour theory of value. It probably doesn’t matter a great deal anyway.

 

[Pickman's model]

You need photo ID. You didn't before.

I don't recall Labour proposing that. Even when they were mooting ID cards (which actually would have been fairer, since everyone would have had to have been provided with one there would be no gerrymandering as there is with this policy)

You don't know what gerrymandering means or you wouldn't say needing to bring id is changing the boundaries of an electoral district. And bringing photo ID to vote is a long way from your tosh about the removal of the right to vote.

 

[redsquirrel]

EDIT: if introducing private finance is the only thing that will save lives then it's better than nothing. That's how bad things are. We aren't in utopia. I don't want that ideally, but there are no idea options

Now you can question his sincerity, which is fair enough. But even that is better. I'll take the possibility Streeting is being honest over the Tories who will introduce charges and continue to crash the NHS.

Socialism!
You also going to advocate for voting LD Wells?

That is the only game in town and people who want to argue against that are just plain wrong

Nice solidarity with all those that have being fighting and losing pay these months

 

[Serge Forward]

Who is then?

Is there any point in embracing a political stance that is never going to amount to anything? A waste of time and energy surely?

You are never going to change the system from outside it, but if you refuse to engage, how are you going to bring about change?

You talk as if you know my political stance. Previous comments of yours have demonstrated a high level of ignorance.

 

[Serge Forward]

Still doesn't answer the question of how you can change things if you are not prepared to engage with the current process.

It's taken the Labour Party 120 years of engaging with the current process, and they've gone from being moderately radical social democratic reformists to a fairly right wing neo liberal Tory lite. Tell us again how engaging with the current process changes things.

 

[Dystopiary]

Another reason not to vote for them - doing so tells them that they can move as far to the right as they like and still have your support.

 

[Karl Masks]

Socialism!
You also going to advocate for voting LD Wells?


Nice solidarity with all those that have being fighting and losing pay these months

This didn't even make sense

 

[Rob Ray]

As with other posts you've been unable to comprehend thus far, redsquirrel made perfect sense and in fact is quite easy to understand if you're not Karl Masks.

 

[Elpenor]

You don't know what gerrymandering means or you wouldn't say needing to bring id is changing the boundaries of an electoral district. And bringing photo ID to vote is a long way from your tosh about the removal of the right to vote.

Wasn’t gerrymandering the bank manager in Dads Army?

 

[danny la rouge]

Wasn’t gerrymandering the bank manager in Dads Army?

George.

 

[WouldBe]

And bringing photo ID to vote is a long way from your tosh about the removal of the right to vote.

What if you don't have photo I'd and can't afford to?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

What if you don't have photo I'd and can't afford to?

My understanding is that councils will be able to issue a free voter identity card - any time soon (think there was a decision not to try and launch it just before xmas when everyone would be thinking about other things) but i'm not sure how you prove your identity to get one of them.

my local council's page on the subject here (although presume the rules are pretty much national)

or apply for a postal vote - again, i understand that proof of identity won't be needed for postal votes (and haven't most of the proven cases of electoral fraud involved dodgy postal votes?)

 

[WouldBe]

or apply for a postal vote - again, i understand that proof of identity won't be needed for postal votes (and haven't most of the proven cases of electoral fraud involved dodgy postal votes?)

Will postal strikes still be on end April/start of may?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Will postal strikes still be on end April/start of may?

maybe.

although that page says something about handing postal votes in at a polling station on the day - or someone else can hand it in on your behalf (but no longer more than 6 postal votes) presumably without identification.

it's not designed to reduce fraud, it's designed to reduce voting.

 

[Pickman's model]

maybe.

although that page says something about handing postal votes in at a polling station on the day - or someone else can hand it in on your behalf (but no longer more than 6 postal votes) presumably without identification.

it's not designed to reduce fraud, it's designed to reduce voting.

Yes indeed. It's by no means good. But to say it's removing the right to vote is hyperbollocks