Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support

[Awesome Wells]

I can try and am likely to. Part of the problem is that our surgery has changed a lot in recent years and the person now in charge is an idiot. They don't roster doctors properly and its very hard to see a regular GP because they are constantly never available. Plus some doctors just don't like what they see as 'cherry picking'. I've had that accusation before. In regard to this appeal, seeing a new GP won't really help though.

 

[8115]

I can try and am likely to. Part of the problem is that our surgery has changed a lot in recent years and the person now in charge is an idiot. They don't roster doctors properly and its very hard to see a regular GP because they are constantly never available. Plus some doctors just don't like what they see as 'cherry picking'. I've had that accusation before. In regard to this appeal, seeing a new GP won't really help though.

Good luck with your appeal.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Thank you.

I'm now just worried that, in saying he thinks i can work, that they might think i've been committing fraud or something stupid!

 

[8115]

Thank you.

I'm now just worried that, in saying he thinks i can work, that they might think i've been committing fraud or something stupid!

Sickness benefits are an entitlement, we all pay tax towards them. You are just asking for what you're entitled to. Don't worry about fraud on top of everything else!

 

[Celt]

Awesome Wells are the CAB going to represent you at tribunal? I think you need to look at the exceptional circumatances granting of ESA, you still don't have points for that, but I think your condition doesn't score enough points although I would have thought that the descriptors describing communication with others are those that best fit your description, I kept a short diary in the days leading up to my Tribunal to give an accurate description of how anxiety/pain affected my life, they were very interested in how many good days to bad, how many good hours in a day. How being eligible to look for work would make your anxiety and mental health worse. If you think you can cope with the Work Related Activity Group, say that - don't make it appear that you are closed to work for ever if you are not, if you can cope with trying to take part in work related activity from the safety of WRAG say so. If as it appears your doctor is a bit pissed off with the system, say so, and say that you feel the need to go through this process has hindered any recovery and theraputic relationship between you and the person you have to rely on for healthcare.

I think if you can, don't get bogged down by the doctors dismissive attitude, it is his attitude to the ridiculous system which he is forced to work within, it isn't a personal slight to you.

I've emailed someone who has some experience in special needs education advocacy. I read somewhere that the recent high court judgment upheld the decision that the work capability assessment was double discriminatory for people with mental health problems or communication difficulties/spectrum disorders.

This is "thoughts from the top of my head" stuff, you may not agree with me, but I hope me talking about this might help you think about what you can prove and put forward to the tribunal panel. I really do know its a big ask, and your anxiety will be giving you strong signals of "you can't do this/ you can't win this", but I think you can and will.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I kept a short diary in the days leading up to my Tribunal to give an accurate description of how anxiety/pain affected my life, they were very interested in how many good days to bad, how many good hours in a day.

That sounds a good idea

Any idea if this sort of thing is worth doing for the ATOS 'assessment' thing? Or would it just not fit into their tick-box approach to it all?

(Friend I've mentioned above has managed to get his ESA50 back, with help from me and a few others, so a trip to ATOS looms at some point soon - )

 

[Celt]

That sounds a good idea

Any idea if this sort of thing is worth doing for the ATOS 'assessment' thing? Or would it just not fit into their tick-box approach to it all?

(Friend I've mentioned above has managed to get his ESA50 back, with help from me and a few others, so a trip to ATOS looms at some point soon - )

it doesn't fit in their tic boxes, but I think its useful to add in the other stuff you want to tell them. Just one side of a sheet of A4, it also helps secure it in the applicants mind what it is they are living with and trying to convey.

 

[chainsawjob]

The Government has carried out an assessment of the key factors in deciding appeals against decisions to remove disability benefits from claimants, after a pilot study revealed GP evidence was the deciding factor in only 2.9% of cases, Pulse has learnt.

The Department of Work and Pensions asked judges to provide a written summary explaining their decisions in individuals’ appeals against the removal of the Employment Support Allowance, including the importance of the GP report.

It followed a study last November that showed judges cited GPs’ supporting evidence as the principal factor in only 2.9% of successful appeals when provided with a list of potential reasons from a drop-down menu.

GP leaders said that practitioners are increasingly being asked to provide evidence to support such appeals – which they say is increasing workload and causing problems with the doctor-patient relationship – despite these figures showing they are of relatively little importance in judges’ decisions.

The ‘Social Security and Child Support Tribunal hearings: Early analysis of appeals allowed from pilot data’ report was released in November 2012, and asked decision makers to select the primary factor affecting their judgement.



The study reviewed around 26,500 successful appeals relating to disability benefits between July and October 2012. Of these appeals 2,170 (8.2%) were overturned based on new documentary evidence, medical or otherwise, and GPs’ evidence was the main factor in 768 – 2.9% - of cases.

The most significant factor was new oral evidence, which was the primary reason given in 41.7% of successful appeals.

My bold.

This is from Pulse (GP publication) which is using it to argue GPs should refuse to provide evidence for benefits claimants. I read it elsewhere on a more disability related website, but can't find the link now, but remember reading to bear in mind that most people will have already submitted GP evidence at the ESA50 stage, and not have any new GP evidence for the tribunal.

My GP did do me a letter to go with my ESA50, (my first one was successful on exceptional circumstances, second one, submitted in July, not heard yet), but like yours Awesome Wells just doesn't get what we are dealing with here. When I tried to explain to her how people are being found unfairly fit for work, she said that the people who run it are "not ogres you know". I gave up trying to explain.

Telling the tribunal yourself, in your own words, how your condition affects you, and how having to look for work/do work related activity would affect you, seems to be what sways it in many cases. And I think a diary sounds a very good idea . Good luck.

 

[Greebo]

<snip>Telling the tribunal yourself, in your own words, how your condition affects you, and how having to look for work/do work related activity would affect you, seems to be what sways it in many cases. And I think a diary sounds a very good idea. Good luck.

I agree about the diary or typical day and week. You've still got a chance Awesome Wells , don't give up hope yet.

I'm pretty sure that one of the things which helped a lot with VP's last DLA claim was being able to pull out the letter I'd sent asking to be excused from jury service. It described what assistance, care, or supervision he'd need during normal office hours, as well as the furniture and other adaptations he'd need in order for me to be able to reliably attend. It made very depressing reading (in spite of keeping to a neutral statement of facts), but it worked.

BTW no matter how your appeal goes, IMHO you really need an advocate, for moral support as well as to just take the pressure off you when interacting with people. I hope you manage to find one soon.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Awesome Wells are the CAB going to represent you at tribunal? I think you need to look at the exceptional circumatances granting of ESA, you still don't have points for that, but I think your condition doesn't score enough points although I would have thought that the descriptors describing communication with others are those that best fit your description, I kept a short diary in the days leading up to my Tribunal to give an accurate description of how anxiety/pain affected my life, they were very interested in how many good days to bad, how many good hours in a day. How being eligible to look for work would make your anxiety and mental health worse. If you think you can cope with the Work Related Activity Group, say that - don't make it appear that you are closed to work for ever if you are not, if you can cope with trying to take part in work related activity from the safety of WRAG say so. If as it appears your doctor is a bit pissed off with the system, say so, and say that you feel the need to go through this process has hindered any recovery and theraputic relationship between you and the person you have to rely on for healthcare.

I think if you can, don't get bogged down by the doctors dismissive attitude, it is his attitude to the ridiculous system which he is forced to work within, it isn't a personal slight to you.

I've emailed someone who has some experience in special needs education advocacy. I read somewhere that the recent high court judgment upheld the decision that the work capability assessment was double discriminatory for people with mental health problems or communication difficulties/spectrum disorders.

This is "thoughts from the top of my head" stuff, you may not agree with me, but I hope me talking about this might help you think about what you can prove and put forward to the tribunal panel. I really do know its a big ask, and your anxiety will be giving you strong signals of "you can't do this/ you can't win this", but I think you can and will.

All along i've argued that i'm trying to get into the WRAG, not the support group. There's no way on earth that will ever happen. But I don't know if that's how the tribunal looks at things. I don't know how they decide who goes where since, iirc, 15 points is the gateway in both cases.

According to CAB i have enough points, it's providing enough to back that up in the eyes of the tribunal. My GP says that he can't verify these issues. That is technically true - but how could he? How could anyone in a 5 minute diagnostic window ever get a hold of someone's mental health. In fact i'm not even sure mental health is the right term. I believe, as i've said before, i have a 'neurodiverse' condition. I can't seem to function in the society we have. To most people that's just laziness.
All i've tried to do throughout all this, right from when the Work Programme first advised me to claim ESA after we clashed, was try to make the case that I need the right kind of help. It hasn't been about a binary can he work/can't he work? That's not even how ESA is meant to work. Unfortunately for me, I don't think that's how i'm going to be judged by this tribunal. Everytime i've tried explaining the subtleties of the system's failings to my GP (who never really got it) he just retorts with the old 'work is the great panacea' argument. I managed to persuade him that not all work is suitable, nor did i tell him that I can't do anything. Again unfortunately that seems to be what ESA wants you to say.

I will take some notes and a few prompts of what I want to cover when I attend. The CAB won't be attending with me. I will be going alone and if I have a meltdown en route then I will have to run back home and cry, and they will judge me in absentia I suppsoe! If I can't handle the actual interview, then well, who knows. I don't really have much of a choice. The CAB don;'t think I have the strongest case, but they've been willing to help and do what they can to support. That's all I can really expect. If I fail, I fail. Can't say i'm terribly excited about signing on again at all, but who knows.

 

[chainsawjob]

Sorry if I was clumsy in not acknowleding how difficult it can be to describe in your own words at a tribunal when you have anxiety/mental health issues, that was remiss of me. I agree that an advocate would be a big advantage, and hope you're able to find someone.

 

[WouldBe]

If I fail, I fail. Can't say i'm terribly excited about signing on again at all, but who knows.

If you do fail and have to sign on ask the DWP for a work psychologist appointment. The report could be very helpful for when you next claim ESA. I'm sure that helped a lot in my case.

 

[Awesome Wells]

I agree about the diary or typical day and week. You've still got a chance Awesome Wells , don't give up hope yet.

I'm pretty sure that one of the things which helped a lot with VP's last DLA claim was being able to pull out the letter I'd sent asking to be excused from jury service. It described what assistance, care, or supervision he'd need during normal office hours, as well as the furniture and other adaptations he'd need in order for me to be able to reliably attend. It made very depressing reading (in spite of keeping to a neutral statement of facts), but it worked.

BTW no matter how your appeal goes, IMHO you really need an advocate, for moral support as well as to just take the pressure off you when interacting with people. I hope you manage to find one soon.

Thanks. I'm going to see about getting a new doctor. I really do think it is important for doctor's to understand the system. They won't like it - some certainly don't. But I think it's the nature of the game now. People, particularly with mental health issues, just can't do without it. The cards are stacked against claimants.
I'm not sure i could get an advocate this late in the day and this close to the holiday season. I will ring the tribunal place and ask what my experience will be, letting them know i have problems with this. If attending alone becomes counter productive to me case, then that's just too bad for me I guess.

 

[Awesome Wells]

If you do fail and have to sign on ask the DWP for a work psychologist appointment. The report could be very helpful for when you next claim ESA. I'm sure that helped a lot in my case.

I have one already, it's part of my tribunal appeal. The CAB advisor had never heard of these people before. The psychologist in question says the right things, and it's good to have her on side, but I suspect that, when push comes to shove, she won't really be able to help. She says that she can negotiate with the DWP to make it easier for people like me signing, but who knows how that will work these days we know how trigger happy the DWP are! Still it's better than nothing.
Beyond that i'm not sure what they can do. When I first saw her she said she could undertake a proper aspergers diagnosis, but then changed it into a more basic examination which formed the basis of her report. It was a bit weird really; prestened as a test to determine the potential, not a direct diagnosis. According to it i have strong change of ADD and possibly other similar conditions as well as 'non verbal learning disability'. But she can't get involved in anything related to the DWP - for example, she has no influence over the behaviour of Work Programme providers, or the tribunal directly.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Sorry if I was clumsy in not acknowleding how difficult it can be to describe in your own words at a tribunal when you have anxiety/mental health issues, that was remiss of me. I agree that an advocate would be a big advantage, and hope you're able to find someone.

Thanks, I understand the point.

Of course an advocate is helpful - anything that can help has got to be good. It's just the reality isn't always the ideal.

 

[Frances Lengel]

Thank you.

I'm now just worried that, in saying he thinks i can work, that they might think i've been committing fraud or something stupid!

Don't worry about that, that won't happen - If it did, everyone who made a claim for ESA and got turned down would be potentially up for fraud - All it means is in your opinion you can't work (or at least need help getting back to work and, as such, should be in the WRAG, whereas your dunderhead of a GP doesn't understand the system and probably reckons he's doing you a favour in saying you can work). By all means worry about getting into the ESA work group but don't worry about any fraud bullshit. That's not going to happen.

It's true that as equationgirl says, I did my own form and my own appeal without any supporting evidence from a GP or anyone else. But, unlike you, what I didn't have was a letter from a GP that was entirely unhelpful. So I've no real advice to give you. Apart from to wish you well and to go ahead with the appeal all the way to it's conclusion. All the best.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Hopefully the letter won't be damaging; otherwise the CAB have made a dreadful mistake in submitting it. I was surprised they sent it, but I guess there's no backsies!

 

[equationgirl]

Well hopefully the tribunal panel will see the GP letter for the rant against the system that it is. Perhaps he thinks he's helping by writing such a letter?

 

[Awesome Wells]

My GP indeed thinks he's helping. That's the thing; he just doesn't understand. After all IDS thinks he's helping people. That's why he's so dangerous.

The subtleties of this system and it's failings, particularly the way the WCA is strucutred and handled, are just not seen. The other doctor that I saw even told me not to worry if i failed the tribunal because she thought she could still intervene. She's a doctor, she thinks, i have to be listened to when i speak about someone's health. Yes, in a sane world that would be only right. But this society isn't run that way!

 

[Awesome Wells]

What rules do tribunals have for approving claims and for how long? A friend was telling me he passed his tribunal for 2 years in the support group.

Now assuming he isn't confusing the two groups; surely time limiting people in the support group is no different to being placed in the WRAG? The argument for the latter is that it's a person who 'can work in the future', while the support group is for people who aren't getting any better.

 

[Sapphireblue]

What rules do tribunals have for approving claims and for how long? A friend was telling me he passed his tribunal for 2 years in the support group.

Now assuming he isn't confusing the two groups; surely time limiting people in the support group is no different to being placed in the WRAG? The argument for the latter is that it's a person who 'can work in the future', while the support group is for people who aren't getting any better.

i think the idea is if you're in the support group they completely leave you alone until the time period is up, whereas in the WRAG there may be stuff you have to do (usually towards the end of the time period) to help you get work in the future.

 

[Awesome Wells]

I suppose that's what they'd say. But it just goes the prove further how ESA has been so twisted. It isn't meant to be like this. The clue's in the name... you would think!

 

[Reg Perrin]

 

[kittyP]

I know I am repeating myself but I just don't want people to think I took from this thread and then fucked off.
It makes me really nervous if I read this thread too much.
But I wanted to say that I am thinking of you all, especially coming up to Christmas.
Machine love to you all xxx

 

[Frances Lengel]

i think the idea is if you're in the support group they completely leave you alone until the time period is up, whereas in the WRAG there may be stuff you have to do (usually towards the end of the time period) to help you get work in the future.

That's it exactly.

 

[Frances Lengel]

I know I am repeating myself but I just don't want people to think I took from this thread and then fucked off.
It makes me really nervous if I read this thread too much.
But I wanted to say that I am thinking of you all, especially coming up to Christmas.
Machine love to you all xxx

Don't worry about it - I seriously doubt anyone thinks that.

 

[Awesome Wells]

That video is quite upsetting. Labour supporters need to watch it because that's what Rache Reeves wants to be tougher than.

 

[equationgirl]

I know I am repeating myself but I just don't want people to think I took from this thread and then fucked off.
It makes me really nervous if I read this thread too much.
But I wanted to say that I am thinking of you all, especially coming up to Christmas.
Machine love to you all xxx

Nobody thinks that lovey x x x

 

[kittyP]

Thank you and I have no idea where the "machine love" came from
It was supposed to be "much love"

 

[geminisnake]

Thank you and I have no idea where the "machine love" came from
It was supposed to be "much love"

I guessed that but it made me
I haven't heard from the tribunal since I failed to make the last appt and I sent back the form so they ask my doc for a report. If I remembered about it more often I might worry