Anti austerity march...urb meet up?

[Wilf]

Why should they expel Blair? I wasn't aware of him doing anything without the support of the party.

Labour are a neo-liberal party who have gone to war at America's behest, so no, it would be illogical to expel Blair.

I hope they keep the cunt, it's like the Ancient Mariner having the dead bird slung round his neck.

 

[Guineveretoo]

Where was it previously suggested that he would, ie that he would follow exactly the same cutting policies as the Tories? Labour have fairly consistantly said they agree with the need for cuts, but disagree about their severity, unless you can demonstrate specifically where Burnham has said otherwise.

But your previous post suggested he has deffo changed his position and that is the result of yesterday's demo, which seems to me a naively simplistic way of looking at it, to say the least.

It was a lighthearted remark, which wasn't even original - I saw it on Facebook - in response to previous comments about whether or not any politician pays attention to demonstration like yesterday's.

I have certainly seen lots of stuff on the labour party forum which says that all the leadership contenders other than Corbyn are signed up to the Tory cuts.

 

[J Ed]

It would be interesting to do a study on whether any significant social demands have been met as a result of peaceful protests of ordinary people alone. I'm sure there are some examples but I am struggling to think of any, there are some like the liberation of South Asia from colonialism and the Civil Rights movement in the US which are remembered wrongly that way but can anyone think of any recent movements which demanded significant social reforms that have had any success which did not rely on any kind of violence or threat of violence?

 

[Guineveretoo]

That really reads like wilful mis-interpretation. Big business, in the form of globalised, financialised capital, funds and directs its political puppets. How could yesterday be anything but a demonstration against such economic power?

It wasn't my demonstration, and they were not my aims or statements. Perhaps I misunderstood, but my understanding was that yesterday was about politics, and against government austerity plans, and that was why the rally was in Parliament Square, directly opposite the House of Commons, and why all the speakers I heard or saw reported, were against government austerity plans.

If I misunderstood, I don't think I was the only one.

 

[Guineveretoo]

It would be interesting to do a study on whether any significant social demands have been met as a result of peaceful protests of ordinary people alone. I'm sure there are some examples but I am struggling to think of any, there are some like the liberation of South Asia from colonialism and the Civil Rights movement in the US which are remembered wrongly that way but can anyone think of any recent movements which demanded significant social reforms that have had any success which did not rely on any kind of violence or threat of violence?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_protests_in_the_United_Kingdom

What about the Hunger Marches?

Or what about the Tolpuddle Martyrs? It was the massive, but peaceful, demonstration in London (and elsewhere) which publicised it, and led to their pardon.

 

[brogdale]

It wasn't my demonstration, and they were not my aims or statements. Perhaps I misunderstood, but my understanding was that yesterday was about politics, and against government austerity plans, and that was why the rally was in Parliament Square, directly opposite the House of Commons, and why all the speakers I heard or saw reported, were against government austerity plans.

If I misunderstood, I don't think I was the only one.

...and you think that those politicians just independently came up with notions of austerity, fiscal consolidation and the shrinking of the state, do you? They are mere functionaries.

 

[butchersapron]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_protests_in_the_United_Kingdom

What about the Hunger Marches?

Or what about the Tolpuddle Martyrs? It was the massive, but peaceful, demonstration in London (and elsewhere) which publicised it, and led to their pardon.

The hunger marches that ended in a mass riot?

 

[Zabo]

But good point, he certainly didn't have the support of any Labour Party member that I knew at the time!

However, if they expelled him, they would have to expel a lot of current and former MPs as well....

That would suit me. He was however the Leader and Prime Minister who sucked up to Bush and the Neo-Cons therefore he should be the one to carry the can.

There must be thousands like me who will never again support Labour because of Iraq. Then there's all the neo-liberal economic philosophies they followed. And let's not forget nice Andy Burnham being a supporter of PFI's.

Unless there is an absolute catastrophe they will never seize power again. They have five years to become a party that listens to the people of the U.K. If they can't do that without any of the bleedin' focus groups they deserve to be cast into the wilderness.

*My spell checker keeps wanting to correct Burnham to Burn Sham. Lol!

 

[existentialist]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-welfare-cuts-despite-anti-austerity-protests

Osborne's and Smith's response, the 12 billion of welfare cuts will go ahead, they are relishing it.

This cannot have been accidental. I think they are thoroughly enjoying rubbing people's noses in their powerlessness.

Which is a great game, all the while it lasts. But I do fear that this government will, wilfully or through sheer arrogance, push people more and more quickly to the edge, to the place where they really do have nothing left to lose. And the backlash from that will be violent, and frightening - it just cannot be otherwise. That's not me rejoicing in the prospect, just acknowledging that that is what happens every time a government pushes too far - from Peterlee to Poll Tax riots, it's been the same.

All we probably need right about now is a hot summer. I reckon an August heatwave will see things begin to kick off.

 

[J Ed]

Things are much worse now than they were during the Poll Tax riots, and worse than 2011 too, and things are not going to get better. When the reaction comes it won't look like the 2011 riots.

 

[Pickman's model]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_protests_in_the_United_Kingdom

What about the Hunger Marches?

Or what about the Tolpuddle Martyrs? It was the massive, but peaceful, demonstration in London (and elsewhere) which publicised it, and led to their pardon.

so notthing in the past 75 years

 

[Pickman's model]

Things are much worse now than they were during the Poll Tax riots, and worse than 2011 too, and things are not going to get better. When the reaction comes it won't look like the 2011 riots.

what was that song the labour party loved so much in the late 90s?

 

[Pickman's model]

This cannot have been accidental. I think they are thoroughly enjoying rubbing people's noses in their powerlessness.

Which is a great game, all the while it lasts. But I do fear that this government will, wilfully or through sheer arrogance, push people more and more quickly to the edge, to the place where they really do have nothing left to lose. And the backlash from that will be violent, and frightening - it just cannot be otherwise. That's not me rejoicing in the prospect, just acknowledging that that is what happens every time a government pushes too far - from Peterlee to Poll Tax riots, it's been the same.

All we probably need right about now is a hot summer. I reckon an August heatwave will see things begin to kick off.

maaybe a summer with 1000 julys

 

[existentialist]

maaybe a summer with 1000 julys

TBH, I think it'll only need the one...

Actually, I'm quite surprised it hasn't kicked off in previous years.

 

[Guineveretoo]

...and you think that those politicians just independently came up with notions of austerity, fiscal consolidation and the shrinking of the state, do you? They are mere functionaries.

And where did I say that?

 

[ViolentPanda]

He said...

​

Anyone else, particularly the young, is fair game.
Scum.

Even the Victorians, who our current crop of cunts seem bent on outdoing, were aware that not everyone fitted into the neat divisions the Poor Law made, and tried to "manage" the issues accordingly. These fuckwads, however, acknowledge little subtlety, and are over-fond of punitive posturing, (metaphorical) dick in hand.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I wonder if all these under 25's had voted labour would it have made a difference.

Probably not. Demographics are such that many of the constituencies with large-volume young populations tend to be urban and already Labour-voting.

 

[ViolentPanda]

presumably burnahms all up for the community service plans they want to roll out on the unemployed and under 25. In an economy which they know, the fucking PPE cunts, they know is designed to have a pool of unemployed labour to keep wages down.

As I've often said regarding an Oxford PPE degree, their graduates know fuck-all about 3 subjects - or rather, just enough to make them dangerous, rather than knowing the basics of 1 subject.
I understand that other institutions that offer PPE try to ameliorate that problem, but most of our Parliamentary PPEs are Oxford, the clique-struck cuntbags!

 

[Zabo]

While I remember... Wasn't it Andy Burnsham - Man Of The People - who abased himself in his correspondence with HRA Charles? Indeed it was!

Tut, tut!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, it looks like Burnham has changed his position on austerity, possibly not unrelated to the turnout on the demo yesterday.

Could it be that a politician had pause for thought as a result of the demo?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...osborne-call-labour-support-12bn-welfare-cuts

As posted above, he's rejected the scale and questioned the targeting. He's not rejected the cuts themselves.

 

[ViolentPanda]

We've already had a link to the story you've just discovered.

Burnham isn't saying he's anti-austerity, he's just saying he won't be quite as austere as Osbourne. If you're arguing he's changed his position as a result of the demo, you'll have to demonstrate that he was previously going to do exactly what Osbourne is doing, and he's now changed his mind*.

And despite what he's saying today (in an obvious attempt to win the Labour leadership) I predict that he and his party will continue to acquiesce in the imposition of austerity.

ETA *and that his change of mind actually means something of substance

Same tune Labour were singing in the run-up to the 2010 election: "We'll still make you eat a shit sandwich, but we'll garnish it with basil to alter the taste slightly".

 

[ViolentPanda]

It was a genuine question.

I believe that he had the support of the party when he went into Iraq. It is one of the reasons that I left the Labour Party.

He had the support of the majority of the Parliamentary Labour Party. He never had the support (and never canvassed for) the support of the national Labour party, because he knew he'd be cunted off by those activists still masochistic enough to be members.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But good point, he certainly didn't have the support of any Labour Party member that I knew at the time!

However, if they expelled him, they would have to expel a lot of current and former MPs as well....

All the better!

 

[ViolentPanda]

That really reads like wilful mis-interpretation. Big business, in the form of globalised, financialised capital, funds and directs its political puppets. How could yesterday be anything but a demonstration against such economic power?

People don't always follow the links of the chain.
I can understand why - I mean, who wants to acknowledge that their life isn't just lived for themselves, but for the convenience of capitalism; that you're seen not as an individual, but as a unit that can be sold other types of units?

 

[ViolentPanda]

...and you think that those politicians just independently came up with notions of austerity, fiscal consolidation and the shrinking of the state, do you? They are mere functionaries.

To me, this speaks very loudly of the almost complete capture of policy formulation over the last 3 decades away from party interests by supposedly-independent "think tanks" that are merely slightly-camouflaged peddlers of neoliberal ideology.

 

[DotCommunist]

He had the support of the majority of the Parliamentary Labour Party. He never had the support (and never canvassed for) the support of the national Labour party, because he knew he'd be cunted off by those activists still masochistic enough to be members.

That war is a legacy any vaugely leftish people of my age still hate the labour party for.

There are many other valid reasons, but that one seems to have stuck in the craw most.

Fair play to the marchers and so on, wish I could have been there, looked like a good day out.

Thats the thing with fptp isn't it? commanding a majority in the house and being able to railroad through any legislation or war drums you like except some stuff that gets token opposition from the lords which is bollocks because they can and are over ruled. It isn't democracy as I understand the meaning of the word.

 

[shifting gears]

. Fucked up quoting on phone

 

[ViolentPanda]

That war is a legacy any vaugely leftish people of my age still hate the labour party for.

There are many other valid reasons, but that one seems to have stuck in the craw most.

Fair play to the marchers and so on, wish I could have been there, lt looked like a good day out.

Thats the thing with fptp isn't it? commanding a majority in the house and being able to railroad through any legislation or war drums you like except some stuff that gets token opposition from the lords which is bollocks because they can and are over ruled. It isn't democracy as I understand the meaning of the word.

Pseudo-democracy that legitimises an elected short-term dictatorship pretty much in perpetuity. We as individual members of the electorate, or as the collective known as "the electorate", have no power to enforce our will on those we elect, so why do we bother? Is it because we can't bear the thought of acknowledging that we've participated in a sham that constantly recirculates members of the ruling class into positions beneficial to themselves and their friends?

 

[existentialist]

Things are much worse now than they were during the Poll Tax riots, and worse than 2011 too, and things are not going to get better. When the reaction comes it won't look like the 2011 riots.

We've (as a society) got much better at a) undermining people's outrage at what government is doing (vide "Benefits Street" and the rest of the endless diet of divisive pabulum), and b) putting a thousand small impediments in the way of people protesting - all the various laws that have nibbled and grubbed away at the edges of our freedoms, much of it in the name of "anti-terrorism".

But it's like constantly building a sandbag wall higher - all that's happening is that the flood is mounting up on the outside. Sooner or later, that wall will break, and the longer the tensions have been suppressed, the more dramatically they'll happen. 2011 was a bit of a damp squib, but the Government can't really keep on hoping that every such protest will be a damp squib, especially with a proportionately smaller police force (police/population ratios are down 15% or so from 1984). The Poll Tax riots were finally triggered by inept and heavy-handed policing of an overwhelmingly peaceful demonstration, just like Saturday's, and it only takes something similar to happen at some demo in the future, and then I think a lot of pent-up resentment is going to flash over into trouble all around the country.

 

[panpete]

It's got really unclear aims (though I think I support 'anti-austerity') so I think I'll be there. I've asked the organisers what their aims are. They replied with 'no austerity'. Not sure what they mean specifically.

There was a few different aims, housing, welfare, bankers, unions were there, etc, etc.
I didn't go cos I had no money for the fare from where I live, (thanks austerity) there was a coach, but you had to be in bristol for 8am which isn't easy from where I live due to train times etc.
If I'd had the money to get myself there and I knew that urbs were going I might well have said yeah lets do it.
I didn't really want to go on my own. I also hate crowds, I get panic attacks in crowds. I bet it was a great day though.
I dunno if marching will make a difference, cos the forces that created this problem in the first place have their roots in corporations, which have grown too big.
I mean IDS and George Osborne were keen to motor on with these cuts and agreed welfare cuts yesteray.
Having said that, what do we do, bend over and take it up the arse?
That is victim mentality. I know I said corporations have got too big and powerful, but at the same time, bending over and having corporate dick forced up my arse is being passive and identifying with powerlessness and victim mentality.
I chose to arrange a little £3 a month donation to People's assembly against Austerity. I know it's only a small amount and the taxman will want some, but I do feel better that I am somehow contributing to the cause.
I am an armchair activist also online, ahhahhahaha, but I don't know many people offline, who are awake enough to know what exactly is going on, even benefit claimants I know, so I stopped giving people sermons about it, as their eyes glazed over, but if i do come across anyone who is awake enough, and their eyes don't glaze over, we can talk a bit.
Being an armchair activist, I have spread the word by making various posts on twitter, facebook etc, and google, and a good few times, I have got likes or +1's or retweets. Twitters is a bit of a squeeze, but I know tweets are meant to be small.
I wrote a song about this subject, well, I nicked a tune off an R&B track that I liked, but it had shit lyrics, so I made my own lyrics and entitled the song "The Corporate Scourge" I posted it on fb and google today, we'll see how that goes. Offline, people have appreciated it though.
All in all a bit contradictory with how I am going about things when it comes to Austerity, but I do respect the people who went on the march as they are not bending over and being rammed up the shitter by the Corporate Beast.