Anti austerity march...urb meet up?

[Pickman's model]

Subjugation, yes. But the State-organised robbing of common (public) land?

i'm not sure that when it began there was much of a state

 

[Wilf]

Why isn't it PA's fault that they're replicating what failed in the past?

I'm probably trapped in a fatalistic logic loop there. Suppose my point is the PA won't do anything different because that's what it is, that's where it's politics are. There needs to be something that not only acts differently but also engages with class struggle. To me, its politics are wrong and its social relationships are wrong. I don't see it changing, don't see it getting into working class self organisination. We need another kind of anti cuts movement, but I don't see too many signs of one emerging. In that sense I was just being rhetorical in saying it can't be blamed for what it is. But yes, your point is the stronger one - there are enough people involved in it who have been round the block and should know that these tactics are ultimately futile.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm probably trapped in a fatalistic logic loop there. Suppose my point is the PA won't do anything different because that's what it is, that's where it's politics are. There needs to be something that not only acts differently but also engages with class struggle. To me, its politics are wrong and its social relationships are wrong. I don't see it changing, don't see it getting into working class self organisination. We need another kind of anti cuts movement, but I don't see too many signs of one emerging. In that sense I was just being rhetorical in saying it can't be blamed for what it is. But yes, your point is the stronger one - there are enough people involved in it who have been round the block and should know that these tactics are ultimately futile.

and in a month or two there will be more than enough people who will know these tacticks are ultimately futile. but will they stick about and push things further or will they retire apathetick to their front rooms?

 

[Wilf]

and in a month or two there will be more than enough people who will know these tacticks are ultimately futile. but will they stick about and push things further or will they retire apathetick to their front rooms?

Good question. We all know the phenomena of people leaving the swp and moving on to something more radical (or as you say, just retiring). That's often a reaction to having to tow a line, managing contradictions, life in a cult. Being in the PA doesn't have those issues. Not sure what is happening to its members, where they are going when they move on.

 

[Pickman's model]

Good question. We all know the phenomena of people leaving the swp and moving on to something more radical (or as you say, just retiring). That's often a reaction to having to tow a line, managing contradictions, life in a cult. Being in the PA doesn't have those issues. Not sure what is happening to its members, where they are going when they move on.

sod their members, i mean the punters who turned out on the weekend.

 

[Wilf]

sod their members, i mean the punters who turned out on the weekend.

Ah right, but still a good q.

 

[ddraig]

Good question. We all know the phenomena of people leaving the swp and moving on to something more radical (or as you say, just retiring). That's often a reaction to having to tow a line, managing contradictions, life in a cult. Being in the PA doesn't have those issues. Not sure what is happening to its members, where they are going when they move on.

the PA in Cardiff seems to have those issues

 

[fishfinger]

I remember Jim Jones too .

 

[emanymton]

I'm probably trapped in a fatalistic logic loop there. Suppose my point is the PA won't do anything different because that's what it is, that's where it's politics are. There needs to be something that not only acts differently but also engages with class struggle. To me, its politics are wrong and its social relationships are wrong. I don't see it changing, don't see it getting into working class self organisination. We need another kind of anti cuts movement, but I don't see too many signs of one emerging. In that sense I was just being rhetorical in saying it can't be blamed for what it is. But yes, your point is the stronger one - there are enough people involved in it who have been round the block and should know that these tactics are ultimately futile.

Isn't part of the problem that there really isn't anything to engage with? Workplace organisation is weak and there is no industrial fightback to speak of. The same pretty much goes for community organisation. The PA is what it is because their is nothing to push it into bring anything else or replace it. I think cesare was right about it having a similar role to TUs. But that means it can serve a function for us as well as long as we are not limited to it. Like TUs it can be put under pressure from below.

Sorry I don't have much time and that is a bit rushed and not very clear.

 

[Pickman's model]

Isn't part of the problem that there really isn't anything to engage with? Workplace organisation is weak and there is no industrial fightback to speak of. The same pretty much goes for community organisation. The PA is what it is because their is nothing to push it into bring anything else or replace it. I think cesare was right about it having a similar role to TUs. But that means it can serve a function for us as well as long as we are not limited to it. Like TUs it can be put under pressure from below.

Sorry I don't have much time and that is a bit rushed and not very clear.

that's cesare to you

 

[Wilf]

Isn't part of the problem that there really isn't anything to engage with? Workplace organisation is weak and there is no industrial fightback to speak of. The same pretty much goes for community organisation. The PA is what it is because their is nothing to push it into bring anything else or replace it. I think cesare was right about it having a similar role to TUs. But that means it can serve a function for us as well as long as we are not limited to it. Like TUs it can be put under pressure from below.

Sorry I don't have much time and that is a bit rushed and not very clear.

Yeah, that says it better what I've been trying to come out with in my last couple of posts. I didn't want to fall into a ritualised attack on the PA, after they did manage to get a lot of people out on Saturday, but I am critical of their approach and politics. But what you said above is exactly the reason I'm hedging my criticism - the lack of something better.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, that says it better what I've been trying to come out with in my last couple of posts. I didn't want to fall into a ritualised attack on the PA, after they did manage to get a lot of people out on Saturday, but I am critical of their approach and politics. But what you said above is exactly the reason I'm hedging my criticism - the lack of something better.

tbh i think that if the nf had had the funds of the pa you'd have seen a pretty good turnout. it was more a case of 'build it and they will come' than 'they're here for our politicks'.

 

[Wilf]

tbh i think that if the nf had had the funds of the pa you'd have seen a pretty good turnout. it was more a case of 'build it and they will come' than 'they're here for our politicks'.

Yeah, I'm not sure why I'm carrying on this line of refusing to go the attack on the PA. It's a massive wasted opportunity and it tends to recycle the same ideas and tactics. Just as with Occupy, ultimately it gets in the way of building working class resistance - even if it does produce spikes of activity at the local and national level.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, I'm not sure why I'm carrying on this line of refusing to go the attack on the PA. It's a massive wasted opportunity and it tends to recycle the same ideas and tactics. Just as with Occupy, ultimately it gets in the way of building working class resistance - even if it does produce spikes of activity at the local and national level.

that's the problem, being forced into someone else's protest agenda and timeframe.