Anti austerity march...urb meet up?

[ddraig]

The woman at the check out in my local Sainsburys said something similiar to me after the march along the lines of 'it's a waste of time' 'it won't change anything'.

You may well be right, but should we just shut up and die quietly? My reasons to march and go to demos:

• I want to FUCKING SHOUT - that doesn't go down well most places but is fine if your on the street with thousands of others. THERE'S A LOT TO SHOUT ABOUT.
• It's my democratic right to do so and with free speech becoming more proscribed its important that we still can.
  
• It's an education. Seeing who else attends, what their banners say, what speakers are there etc. Talking to different people, listening to their point of veiw, their experiences.
  
• Feeling of solidarity. I am glad I am not alone in hating what is happening in the name of Austerity.
  
• Changing public opinion. It's hard for the govt to convince the whole population that all is fine and dandy if there are regular demos, marches and civil disobedience. The bigger the better. And lots of them.
• Being able to say 'I was there' ( or 'not in my name')
  
• Seeing friends, getting out, beer on the way home.

I learned most of my politics by going on marches, demos, protests of all kinds, in the 80s. Did we change anything?
Hard to say what part the protests had, but - Greenham Common was closed, Apatheid did end in South Africa, Mandela was freed, the poll tax was scrapped, Clause 28 was eventually got rid of, same sex age of consent was lowered and laws to protect queer people from discrimination were introduced.

You do what you want to - I hope what ever actions you take help make a change.

good for you and I agree with your post
civil disobedience you say? interesting!! what forms would you like to see?

treelover do you agree with a bit of civil disobedience?

 

[friendofdorothy]

good for you and I agree with your post
civil disobedience you say? interesting!! what forms would you like to see?

treelover do you agree with a bit of civil disobedience?

what ever you like.
I tried pulling down fences (greenham). I defaced sexist posters. Kissing in public at an Outrage Kiss In Picadilly circus (still an arrestable offence in '80s)
I admired women who chained themselved to railings smashed windows and burnt post boxes to get the vote. The dyke who chained herself to Sue Lawly reading the news, shouting stop clause 28. Gay men who broke through the police cordon and beat on the doors of parliament while the age of consent debate happened. ACT UP or was it OUTRAGE die in (on the road at elephant and castle at rush hour) and last years Occupy in Parliament sq. I'm all for sitting in the way and refusing to budge.

Any ideas that would highlight the shit that this govt is doing in the name of austerity? Go on be imaginative.

 

[existentialist]

That objective was attained. The fact that the government was never going to pay any attention, well, I suspect everyone knew that.

Oh, the government will be paying attention. But, on past form, I'd say they don't have a clue what it means, or where it might lead to. I expect Cameron's hubris has him confidently believing that his flim-flam will continue to con the population indefinitely, and they'll carry on seeing these marches as something to snigger at right up until one of them goes nasty.

The poll tax riots ultimately did for Thatcher...

 

[ddraig]

again just to emphasise I agree with you and have a lot of respect for you and others attending those historical protests.
those protests tended to be more militant on the whole I believe?
and again massive respect to you for being up for more direct action and blockading
a lot of people aren't though sadly and apparently even put off according to treelover.
imagine if even a few % of those on Sat were up for more direct action!

 

[existentialist]

again just to emphasise I agree with you and have a lot of respect for you and others attending those historical protests.
those protests tended to be more militant on the whole I believe?
and again massive respect to you for being up for more direct action and blockading
a lot of people aren't though sadly and apparently even put off according to treelover.
imagine if even a few % of those on Sat were up for more direct action!

I'm not a sociologist, but I bet there's one somewhere who has looked at the dynamics of direct action and unrest who could give us an authoritative view, but the way I see it, the government seems happy to unashamedly continue to ratchet up the pain, grinning at us all the while they tell us how good it's all going to be. Sooner or later, a tipping point is going to get reached where enough people (and it doesn't have to be that many) are sufficiently pissed off with the situation that something happens. In some ways, I'm surprised it hasn't happened sooner - we certainly do seem to be a lot less militant than I remember people being in my youth.

 

[ddraig]

actually wasn't replying to you as have you on ignore (just noticed that bit at bottom of page that says 'show ignored content')

 

[existentialist]

actually wasn't replying to you as have you on ignore (just noticed that bit at bottom of page that says 'show ignored content')

Right you are, then

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not a sociologist, but I bet there's one somewhere who has looked at the dynamics of direct action and unrest who could give us an authoritative view, but the way I see it, the government seems happy to unashamedly continue to ratchet up the pain, grinning at us all the while they tell us how good it's all going to be. Sooner or later, a tipping point is going to get reached where enough people (and it doesn't have to be that many) are sufficiently pissed off with the situation that something happens. In some ways, I'm surprised it hasn't happened sooner - we certainly do seem to be a lot less militant than I remember people being in my youth.

remember the ides of august 2011

 

[redsquirrel]

That a fair number of people now say that the fact it was peaceful(and fun), means they want to do it again, but also do local campaigning, we will see if that happens.

You mean in the same way that the (far, far larger) Iraq matches led to concrete results. Wonderful.

 

[Pickman's model]

You mean in the same way that the (far, far larger) Iraq matches led to concrete results. Wonderful.

treelover has all the political nous
of a demented woodlouse

 

[Libertad]

remember the ides of august 2011

Very good

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are the people pooh poohing demos saying they are a complete waste of time? That we shouldn't bother at all?

Who's been pooh-poohing demos?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Here you go...all you taffy Church fanboys (& girls?)...

TBF, Church pisses that pair of talentless no-marks off just for existing and having the courage of her convictions.

 

[ViolentPanda]

We're going round in circles because people are pointing out the reasons why A to B marches are doomed to fail in their objective, if their objective is to change the reason for the A to B march. What people aren't doing though (as far as I can see) is "pooh poohing" or being dismissive of individuals marching - you've come to that erroneous conclusion yourself so no wonder the conversation keeps going round in circles.

Yup. There's always a place for demonstrations - they fulfil a need for individuals and collectives to publicly state their position - but they rarely work to bring about changes of policy. We generally have to rely on violent resistance for that, which is bad for "us" because "they" hold all the cards.
Back when I could walk faster than a desperately-drunk penguin, I went on lots of demos. I went to express solidarity for causes I believed in, and sometimes for a bit of aggro because you knew the OB were going to go in heavy, or that the dog-end of British fascism would (in which case the OB would do fuck-all, unless the boneheads were getting a kicking). You can't really achieve lasting political change with demonstrations, though. For change you usually need a broader strategy that involves bringing issues to wider awareness and making people feel those issues - even then you can rely on the ruling class to come together in order to minimise or neutralise any perceived threat.

 

[ViolentPanda]

i had nothing to do with what happened to the ritz, so please don't say that's my approach. you seem to think i have something other than i have. i don't believe in violence or damage to property as a shibboleth, a strategy. non-violent action often gets the goods - so does attacking people and property. it's simply a choice of the right tool for the task. but always best to follow the path of least resistance. nonetheless, you'll see scraps in future as people have asked nicely now and been denied. it's not at all a question of "my approach", it+'s a question of people having had enough of their noses being ground in shit.

And about them breaking their social conditioning and realising it's okay - in fact often right - to go beyond demonstrating into physical direct action when it is necessary.
As more people realise they're being left with nothing to lose by the ruling class, more will have had enough, and more will think "if a copper shoves me, why not shove him back?" or "why shouldn't I go into that shop that sells stuff exclusively for the wealthy, and overturn a few displays, or do a sit-in on the floor at Fortnum and Mason?".

 

[ViolentPanda]

Has it been so long since demos/marches were a regular part of many people's lives that the lessons learnt from them have to be learnt again?

I suspect it might.

I think that part of the problem in the UK is that 30 years of demonisation of protest has had an effect on the perceived legitimacy of mass protest, and that for some folk they do need to learn all the lessons again, and to realise that it's righteous to be angry and want to do something - anything! - about it.

 

[cesare]

I think that part of the problem in the UK is that 30 years of demonisation of protest has had an effect on the perceived legitimacy of mass protest, and that for some folk they do need to learn all the lessons again, and to realise that it's righteous to be angry and want to do something - anything! - about it.

It's not just demonisation though - it's been an ongoing process of demonisation (but not too much, the State still needs the letting off steam aspect but in an ever more controlled and "peaceful" way) + ensuring that no real concessions are made as a result. It's those two factors working together that have had the effect on the perceived legitimacy so that effectively mass protest has been coralled into big organised AtoB marches, stewarded by the organisers.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's not just demonisation though - it's been an ongoing process of demonisation (but not too much, the State still needs the letting off steam aspect but in an ever more controlled and "peaceful" way) + ensuring that no real concessions are made as a result. It's those two factors working together that have had the effect on the perceived legitimacy so that effectively mass protest has been coralled into big organised AtoB marches, stewarded by the organisers.

Agreed. I mentioned "social conditioning" above, and that's partly what I meant - control through defining more and more tightly what is "allowable: Basically conditioning people to self-police even when submitting to the state's whims on protest.

 

[cesare]

I think that you can draw comparisons with how trade unions are set up and function. Trade Unions deliver the employers a disciplined workforce. Trade Unions and other left organisations such as PA deliver the State with disciplined protest.

That's an observation about collective function rather than valid individual motivations, of course.

 

[cesare]

Leading on from that - in the same way that the State has drawn the teeth of TU effectiveness in the workplace, it has done the same with mass protest in the public sphere, in a similar way and (irksomely, if that's a word) utilising TUs in the most part to do it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Leading on from that - in the same way that the State has drawn the teeth of TU effectiveness in the workplace, it has done the same with mass protest in the public sphere, in a similar way and (irksomely, if that's a word) utilising TUs in the most part to do it.

insofar as there still is a publick sphere

 

[cesare]

insofar as there still is a publick sphere

I was meaning general joe public rather than public sector, was that what you meant?

 

[Pickman's model]

I was meaning general joe public rather than public sector, was that what you meant?

i meant that an increasing amout of 'publick space' is in fact only 'publick space' until you try to do something other than shop.

i was also thinking of the auld habermasian 'publick sphere' but i am not sure you want to go there.

 

[cesare]

i meant that an increasing amout of 'publick space' is in fact only 'publick space' until you try to do something other than shop.

i was also thinking of the auld habermasian 'publick sphere' but i am not sure you want to go there.

Oh yes, absolutely.

Did this process of class robbery start with the Enclosures do you think?

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh yes, absolutely.

Did this process of class robbery start with the Enclosures do you think?

way before then i would have thought.

 

[Libertad]

Oh yes, absolutely.

Did this process of class robbery start with the Enclosures do you think?

I like to blame the Normans but our subjugation (in these isles) pre-dates them I should think.

 

[Wilf]

My random, not having read the thread interjection: I really don't want to knock the idea of getting large(ish) numbers out for a wander round, a protest, speeches. It has a role to play, it provides a focus for some people who are new to political action. All that is fine, providing it's part of something else, it's actively involved in class struggle, supporting industrial action, local poverty coalitions, real material actions.

I don't want to get into easy gibes about the people's assembly - the state of the anarcho/green/Leninist left is piss poor. However, too much of what I've seen (with no doubt lots of honourable exceptions) is the local PA mirroring this national march. Basically, doing things with placards, blogs, meetings, the usual stuff. It doesn't have much reach into/engagement with working class communities. Again, I'm not being sectarian, the same could be said about whole sections of the libertarian left. Suppose the PA is what it is, a fairly active liberal left. They can't be blamed for being something they aren't. I think that it's existence may well be a barrier to something more radical being at the heart of the anti-cuts movement, but again, that isn't the PA's fault per se.

 

[cesare]

My random, not having read the thread interjection: I really don't want to knock the idea of getting large(ish) numbers out for a wander round, a protest, speeches. It has a role to play, it provides a focus for some people who are new to political action. All that is fine, providing it's part of something else, it's actively involved in class struggle, supporting industrial action, local poverty coalitions, real material actions.

I don't want to get into easy gibes about the people's assembly - the state of the anarcho/green/Leninist left is piss poor. However, too much of what I've seen (with no doubt lots of honourable exceptions) is the local PA mirroring this national march. Basically, doing things with placards, blogs, meetings, the usual stuff. It doesn't have much reach into/engagement with working class communities. Again, I'm not being sectarian, the same could be said about whole sections of the libertarian left. Suppose the PA is what it is, a fairly active liberal left. They can't be blamed for being something they aren't. I think that it's existence may well be a barrier to something more radical being at the heart of the anti-cuts movement, but again, that isn't the PA's fault per se.

Why isn't it PA's fault that they're replicating what failed in the past?

 

[Pickman's model]

Why isn't it PA's fault that they're replicating what failed in the past?

 

[cesare]

I like to blame the Normans but our subjugation (in these isles) pre-dates them I should think.

Subjugation, yes. But the State-organised robbing of common (public) land?