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Anarchism. 'Organisation'? 'Leadership'?

Edie said:
What other rewards would there be for people who worked hard, took risks and wanted to better themselves?
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People would still work hard and create a better environment for themselves and others. But money is not the only motivator in society. Parents work hard looking after and teaching their children...not because they will get financial reward but for because they want to. People work harding creating things, gardens, music, art, sports, food, furniture and a million other things ...because they want to CREATE.

Money is a motivator in society only because that is how it has been structured based on past scarcity. In future as production increases money will become less and less important.

Free healthcare, education, universal pensions etc were thought to be ludicrous and impossible a century ago.


Communism is the future. Embrace it Edie! :D
 
Edie said:
You've said you don't think I'm a wife, mother or someone who questions politics. I really don't have any comeback other than YOU NUTTER! :D

Also you haven't said what you'd like to see happen. What you'd like to see change, and how. Why? Cos it's easier to criticise than to actually say what you reckon and be attacked? Or cos you think I'm a deep undercover ultra-free-marketeer? lol
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I'm the nutter when no matter what the discussion you fall back on saying, 'I'm only a woman with kids and a hubby to look after and we sometimes get to talking about politics' before coming up with some garbled version of some hackneyed neo-liberal tripe?

Ah well.
 
Edie said:
You say communism went so fucked up cos of a specific political/ society context. Well maybe, sounds like a bit of a lame excuse though.

I've made no secret that I've thought about ultra-free markets in the past. I'm right wing, so fuckin what? Which bit of wife, mother or someone who has political questions don't you believe you nutter :D

I'm under no illusions that our MPs are influenced and controlled by business. Cash for questions, MPs leaving then using there political influence when they are on company boards, giving public contracts to there mates companies. It's all corrupt as fuck. I'm interested in why you think we continue to put them there? Why don't you tell me some of your own views and answers? As for freedom being an imaginary thing, well that sounds like lefty bollox to me. I don't reckon you'd be saying that if you lived in North Korea, or Stalinist Russia in the past.

kyser- you mean like bartering or exchange? What other rewards would there be for people who worked hard, took risks and wanted to better themselves?
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You clearly don't even understand how and why the Communist-ruled societies came about. Do some reading maybe.

Ultra-free market politics are not necessarily right-wing either, but can be adopted by any part of the political spectrum under the right conditions and often have been in recent decades. If right-wing means conservatism, neo-liberal utopianism is far from conservative in any meaningful sense. In fact it shares many of the traits of the radical left, but almost none of the good ones. You need to learn more about what you think you're espousing as well, and drop all this Mickey Mouse 'this works, this doesn't work' drivel.

MPs and political parties are indeed influenced by business. But it's business that's in charge, not the MPs (though they are willing allies mostly.) All that you complain of comes not primarily from MPs but from allowing corporations to call the shots in an increasing number of areas in society.

It's more than obvious why people keep electing the same parties. It's because, due to a variety of factors, there is no visible alternative.

What do you think freedom is, seeing as you're the one who keeps bandying the word around? In what sense are the Russians free now, for example, when they can't organise politically without being smacked around or even killed by well-fed flunkeys of the capitalist regime? (And even if they could freely organise politically, it still wouldn't make them free in any meaningful sense, no more so than running your own busines makes you free.)

And whether you're really a wife and mother or not, you're still a cranky neo-liberal ideologue, although not a very articulate one.
 
LLETSA said:
You clearly don't even understand how and why the Communist-ruled societies came about. Do some reading maybe.

Ultra-free market politics are not necessarily right-wing either, but can be adopted by any part of the political spectrum under the right conditions and often have been in recent decades. If right-wing means conservatism, neo-liberal utopianism is far from conservative in any meaningful sense. In fact it shares many of the traits of the radical left, but almost none of the good ones. You need to learn more about what you think you're espousing as well, and drop all this Mickey Mouse 'this works, this doesn't work' drivel.

MPs and political parties are indeed influenced by business. But it's business that's in charge, not the MPs (though they are willing allies mostly.) All that you complain of comes not primarily from MPs but from allowing corporations to call the shots in an increasing number of areas in society.

It's more than obvious why people keep electing the same parties. It's because, due to a variety of factors, there is no visible alternative.

What do you think freedom is, seeing as you're the one who keeps bandying the word around? In what sense are the Russians free now, for example, when they can't organise politically without being smacked around or even killed by well-fed flunkeys of the capitalist regime? (And even if they could freely organise politically, it still wouldn't make them free in any meaningful sense, no more so than running your own busines makes you free.)

And whether you're really a wife and mother or not, you're still a cranky neo-liberal ideologue, although not a very articulate one.
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How many people in this country, outside this forum, understand how Communist countries came about? No one I know does, it's a pretty niche subject matter. TBH I tried to read that Anarchist FAQ earlier but it was bloody hard going. It's incredibly long, with loads of references to dead people or other posters (Bakunin and Kropotkin I'm looking at you :D). It's all just... bloody specialised. Dot Com sent me summat a year or so ago, which I should of read but didn't get round to :(

Seeing as we agree that it's business in collaboration with MPs in charge, it's a bit pointless to keep saying it. You still haven't said what you'd like to see replace that, or how you think we'd get there. Do you not know what you think? Look, you can think what you like about me, I really couldn't give a shit. I don't have anything sorted out in my head, and I don't have a problem with that cos I know I have a lot to learn about politics. A few years ago I would of been much more behind keeping the current system as it is, but making it more democratic and transparent. Now after everything that's happened in the last few years (expenses scandal, cash for questions, butchersaprons list of the financial interests of MPs) I think it's just corrupt as fuck. But as to what the solution is? I don't know. I posted a thread about it a while back, but the fact is no one on the left seriously has an alternative.

So I kind of wave between thinking I agree summat drastic has to happen, and think yer maybe I should be out there protesting. Then I think actually my OH might be right, and life will never be fair, and just do the best for us and the kids and fuck it.

rover- I don't understand what you mean by
In future as production increases money will become less and less important.
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I struggle to see how a world without money would work. At all.
 
LLETSA said:
And whether you're really a wife and mother or not, you're still a cranky neo-liberal ideologue, although not a very articulate one.
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lol

woman
Photo60.jpg


mother
IMG_0210.jpg


And married to.
So fuck you :D
Photo63.jpg
 
Edie said:
I struggle to see how a world without money would work. At all.
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It would be like Star Trek, a Communist society, but with less aliens. Automated production is increasing and that reduces the need for labour. Agriculture today uses less than 1% of the total workforce whereas 100 years ago it was 20% People are being increasingly freed to work as and when they pleased. This is happening more and more, even the Tories aspire to it with their 'Big Society' concept.

Capitalism is going to be increasingly out of step with society. Forcing people to work for the money system and not because it is needed or wanted. Every house in the country has been paid for several times over since they were built but still the system forces people to struggle to pay increasing mortgages.
 
TBF he doesn't really EXPLAIN it, he just says "money is no longer the driving force in our lives, we work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity". :hmm:

God I'm a little drunk now, and I've got to say, this is bonkers stuff :D How is it ever gonna be the case that people swop from being selfish, greedy motherfuckers who just want the best for themselves and there family to people who "work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity". It just seems like selfishness and greed will always undercut good intentions and generosity. Those who keep for themselves, and build a secure future for the kids, will always do better than those who don't. It's the default.

You can probably ignore that, although it is what I think deep down. Show me an alternative to capitalism that aint based on good human nature but that still leaves people freer, gets rid of corruption and looks after those at the bottom. God, this is fantasy stuff.
 
I dont think a sudden change to a Communist/Anarchist society would be possible or even desirable at present. I reckon it will be a gradual change with many ups and downs.
 
Edie said:
How many people in this country, outside this forum, understand how Communist countries came about? No one I know does, it's a pretty niche subject matter. TBH I tried to read that Anarchist FAQ earlier but it was bloody hard going. It's incredibly long, with loads of references to dead people or other posters (Bakunin and Kropotkin I'm looking at you :D). It's all just... bloody specialised. Dot Com sent me summat a year or so ago, which I should of read but didn't get round to :(

Seeing as we agree that it's business in collaboration with MPs in charge, it's a bit pointless to keep saying it. You still haven't said what you'd like to see replace that, or how you think we'd get there. Do you not know what you think? Look, you can think what you like about me, I really couldn't give a shit. I don't have anything sorted out in my head, and I don't have a problem with that cos I know I have a lot to learn about politics. A few years ago I would of been much more behind keeping the current system as it is, but making it more democratic and transparent. Now after everything that's happened in the last few years (expenses scandal, cash for questions, butchersaprons list of the financial interests of MPs) I think it's just corrupt as fuck. But as to what the solution is? I don't know. I posted a thread about it a while back, but the fact is no one on the left seriously has an alternative.

So I kind of wave between thinking I agree summat drastic has to happen, and think yer maybe I should be out there protesting. Then I think actually my OH might be right, and life will never be fair, and just do the best for us and the kids and fuck it.

rover- I don't understand what you mean by I struggle to see how a world without money would work. At all.
Click to expand...



Yet you are the one constantly on here pontificating about the way the 'communism' you admittedly don't understand doesn't 'work' etc.

I have already said that one of the problems in the current situation is that the left doesn't have a convincing alternative even as capitalism lurches from one crisis to another, as it always has done and will continue to do. It's now possible to see what the last few generations have come to understand as capitalism come crashing down with nobody who opooses it having any real idea what to put in its place. It's impossible to say who or what would then fill the void. The reasons for this are long and complex. It's of no real use asking individuals to come up with alternatives. Plenty of people on boards like this do so, but it's just words on screens.

The only point worth making about the ties between corporations and the political system is that it's the corporations who lead. They have bought the political system.
 
I dont know how it will work exactly either.

But take Facebook for example. The guy who created that just wanted a site where he could email his mates and put pictures. It caught on and spread to be global!

But he didnt work on it initially to make money...just because he wanted to. It could have been Urban!

(im drinking too, the Xmas rum)
 
LLETSA said:
Yet you are the one constantly on here pontificating about the way the 'communism' you admittedly don't understand doesn't 'work' etc.

I have already said that one of the problems in the current situation is that the left doesn't have a convincing alternative even as capitalism lurches from one crisis to another, as it always has done and will continue to do. It's now possible to see what the last few generations have come to understand as capitalism come crashing down with nobody who opooses it having any real idea what to put in its place. It's impossible to say who or what would then fill the void. The reasons for this are long and complex. It's of no real use asking individuals to come up with alternatives. Plenty of people on boards like this do so, but it's just words on screens.

The only point worth making about the ties between corporations and the political system is that it's the corporations who lead. They have bought the political system.
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I'd hardly say I'm on here all the time 'pontificating' about communism :D You said yourself you had no idea who the fuck I am, I hardly post a lot in P+P. Anyway, who gives a fuck. You lot huddle round wanking over terms like dialectical materialism which most of the rest of the population can't even spell let alone understand, so what if you are asked to explain summat every now and again.

Oh. So you have no alternative. You just... don't want capitalism. I don't know what I think about that. Sounds scary though. Not having an alternative, incase it descends into anarchy in the civil war sense of the term.
 
LLETSA said:
I don't want to see your snapshots. Whatever you are, you're still an half-baked neo-liberal ideologue crank.
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And you are a grumpy, boring, up-his-own-arse irrelevant WANKKKKERRRRR. With no answers, just a lot of pointless knowledge about communism in the 20th centuary and a superior attitude.

Happy christmas btw.
 
Edie said:
I'd hardly say I'm on here all the time 'pontificating' about communism :D You said yourself you had no idea who the fuck I am, I hardly post a lot in P+P. Anyway, who gives a fuck. You lot huddle round wanking over terms like dialectical materialism which most of the rest of the population can't even spell let alone understand, so what if you are asked to explain summat every now and again.

Oh. So you have no alternative. You just... don't want capitalism. I don't know what I think about that. Sounds scary though. Not having an alternative, incase it descends into anarchy in the civil war sense of the term.
Click to expand...



To see how rotten capitalism is doesn't necessarily mean that you can see an alternative. Capitalism will end eventually; you can already see how it's starting to consume itself. But the existence of convincing alternatives depend on particular historical circumstances, and events of the last few decades have eroded coherent opposition to capitalism-at the very point, as I said, that it's starting to undermine not only the conditions it needs to flourish long-term, but those that enable life as we know it to continue.

There may be people wanking over such things as dialectical materialsm on here, but I'm not one of them. But they're no worse than those who think you can just drop everything and start a business or wank on about abstract terms like freedom.
 
Edie said:
And you are a grumpy, boring, up-his-own-arse irrelevant WANKKKKERRRRR. With no answers, just a lot of pointless knowledge about communism in the 20th centuary and a superior attitude.

Happy christmas btw.
Click to expand...



Why do you always want answers? You don't even have any sensible questions, while your own solutions are those of the school playground.
 
Edie said:
God I'm a little drunk now, and I've got to say, this is bonkers stuff :D How is it ever gonna be the case that people swop from being selfish, greedy motherfuckers who just want the best for themselves and there family to people who "work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity". It just seems like selfishness and greed will always undercut good intentions and generosity. Those who keep for themselves, and build a secure future for the kids, will always do better than those who don't. It's the default.
Click to expand...



To organise the systems of production, distribution and exchange on a different basis doesn't necessitate any great change in human nature. Again, it depends on the conditions pre-existing where it is attempted. As it has been tried mainly in impoverished countries (whose model was then imposed on satellite states), it was inevitable that all the dominant traits of the old society would re-emerge even if in altered form. They would to a certain degree even in the best of circumstances of course, but much depends on how successful the alternative is from the off-which depends on the material starting point. And remember that it was once considered normal that monarchs had absolute power by divine right, an idea that almost nobody takes seriously now. Is it really that difficult to imagine a situation where economic greed is no longer treated as paramount? (It isn't even officially acknowledged to be paramount now, even if it is in reality, except by followers of crackpot economic creeds.)

And those who prioritise 'keeping for themselves and building a secure future for the kids' will not 'always' do anything. That's because anything can happen. People do this the world over and are often here today gone tommorrow, their lives and those of their kids swept away by famine war or flood. Or whatever. You are not in control. You are guilty of imagining that what we are used to here, in our lifetimes, is normal. It isn't-it's an historical anomaly, the outer limits of which we may be already approaching. War, poverty and chaos are the norm, as many people alive today even in this society can tell you.
 
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