Anarchism. 'Organisation'? 'Leadership'?
- Thread starter TremulousTetra
- Start date
How do you think I know what it's like? My husband runs his own business for the last 10 years and I was a sole trader for 2 years when the kids were little. That's how I know.
Guess what? Your plumber may not represent everyone. Lots of tradesmen I know like it. Flexible hours and the money you make is yours (except tax) and no boss. Sure people go bust. Not everyone can do it. So what?
Blags I don't mind paying for healthcare, education, civil amenities. But I resent the government making them decisions cos some pfi cunts like Carillion cook my kids lunch. Fuck central government. It's corrupt.
Ahhh thanks mate.
Thats possibly good advice. I'm not telling you how to live anyway. You've made your own decisions.
What are you doing then? And how do you know anything about anybody's decisions?
It's not generally a matter of who can or can't do it but of the vagaries of the economy, and it's a matter of record that most small businesses fail. Stop falling for the idea that when it comes to your economic fate it's your own actions that are paramount. And you still haven't said what 'take control of your life' is supposed to mean. I wish you would because it seems like a platitude. Similarly, you have yet to flesh out what you mean when you say 'people are freer now than ever.' What does freedom mean exactly?
I don't think you'll find may fans of PFI on here, but what's your alternative to central government? And you'll find that PFI is beloved of the kind of people who'd have you believe that your fate is in your own hands.
I honestly don't know what the alternative to central government is, thats why I am posting on a thread with a load of anarchists
It needs to be stripped RIGHT back though, basically I think it needs to collect minimum tax then redistribute the money to local organisations like hospitals/ schools/ councils for the roads etc. These can be run by the people who work there and serve. Schools can be run by the teachers and parents, hospitals by the healthcare staff. People on the front line know how the money needs to be spent. I don't understand the lefts obsession with central control. Give us our money back then let people be. Freedom is being able to do and think what you want without being told by government and rulers what they think is best, or what is in there interest.In fact I don't understand why anarchism is seen as a left idea. I don't understand why communism and anarchism are seen as some kind of progression from each other
Communism seems all about state control, people being forced into being the same or equal and acting to support the state, control over everything even what people think. Anarchism seems to be more about people taking control over there lives. You don't know what 'taking control' of your life means . It means making your own decisions, taking your own risks, deciding what to do with your own money, and having the freedom to do this. Anarchism seems more an idea of the right than the left? The left fundamentally seem afraid of letting people make decisions with there own money and communities and accept the consequences. It's patronising.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I honestly don't know what the alternative to central government is, thats why I am posting on a thread with a load of anarchists
In fact I don't understand why anarchism is seen as a left idea. I don't understand why communism and anarchism are seen as some kind of progression from each other
With respect, I think you have entirely misunderstood what is meant by anarchism, communism, left and right.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The problem with government (as we currently understand the term) is that it functions best as a mechanism for accruing and centralising power, whether that government is "left" or "right". The Conservatives may talk a good fight when it comes to shrinking the state, but they almost always don't mean "shrinking the involvement of the state", they mean "shrinking the employee base and payroll bill" and/or "shrinking the responsibilities of the state".I honestly don't know what the alternative to central government is, thats why I am posting on a thread with a load of anarchists
Given that we're supposedly governed (and policed) by the fact that we grant the state leave to govern us in return for certain protections and rights, i.e. responsibilities that the state has toward us (often the ones they're most intent on shirking), you can see how they're happy to keep on centralising power into their own hands and out of others, while still maintaining overall control. Governments are highly unlikely, whatever they claim, to give power away, whatever the rhetoric about "empowerment" might lead you to believe.
In fact I don't understand why anarchism is seen as a left idea. I don't understand why communism and anarchism are seen as some kind of progression from each other
How have you "taken control of your life", if everything you do to exert that control is fundamentally governed by what the state says you can and cannot do? You're only "Taking control" as far as they will let you, and if they decide to take away your right to "decide what you do with your own money", what comeback do you have? None.
I honestly don't know what the alternative to central government is, thats why I am posting on a thread with a load of anarchists
In fact I don't understand why anarchism is seen as a left idea. I don't understand why communism and anarchism are seen as some kind of progression from each other
As people have said earlier in the thread, you have to distinguish between communism as an idea or goal and the experience of Communist regimes, which did indeed impose strict state control of most aspects of life (although, speaking from personal experience, plenty of people did find that there was plenty of scope to ignore the state when they chose to). Even there, though, this was meant to be a temporary measure and, for one reason or another became institutionalised. They were, as has also been said already, regimes that arose out of the historical and cultural legacies of those countries, rather than being inevitable examples of what happens when people try to establish communist societies. There is no left wing obsession with central government, but a variety of views on the matter. Out of interest, how do you imagine you can get from central government to the situation you describe?
Everybody does, to one degree or another, what you describe as 'taking control of your own life.' What makes you think people with left wing views are necessarily opposed to it? And what kind of freedom does it amount to? What do you understand freedom to mean (because I don't think that, ultimately, there is any such thing?)
I get the feeling that you know all this already, however, and rather than being the bored housewive with kids, or however it is you describe yourself (I only began to notice your posts a couple of days ago), you are here to push an ideological agenda, although doing it badly.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Re: new businesses...the average failure rate is 1 in 3 in the first 3 years of trading, after which a business isn't considered new any more. The first 18 months of trading are the hardest when early failure is likely to happen. Most likely cause of early failure is cashflow problems caused by customers not paying.
Re: access to capital...I've started two businesses. The first was started from home, using my home phone, PC and credit card to pay my rent and bills. My primary capital however, wasn't money, it was human - my two business partners and I had, between us, 20 years combined experience in what was then a comparatively new market (internet advertising, 1998-1999, all three of us were experienced media space buyers).
So even if you don't need access to £££ immediately, you need some kind of capital to start your own business, especially if you want to have any chance of success - shit, even then, when you've got an established business, actually having talent and focus on your business isn't enough - look at the condition of the businesses on things like Ramsey's kitchen nightmares and similar reality show business guru type stuff.
Anarchism (and communism) require a wholly different approach to life from those who wish to live in it. Somewhere earlier in the thread, RMP3 talks about factory workers making the decision about how much they produce - a situation which, if repeated across society, would quickly see dissatisfaction set in and things would start to regress. It also betrays a notion of social ownership that is capitalist in mentality - those who work with the means of production (i.e .those factory workers) own those means of production (I suspect that's not what you meant RMP3, but that's how it sounds).
Anyhoo...
Re: access to capital...I've started two businesses. The first was started from home, using my home phone, PC and credit card to pay my rent and bills. My primary capital however, wasn't money, it was human - my two business partners and I had, between us, 20 years combined experience in what was then a comparatively new market (internet advertising, 1998-1999, all three of us were experienced media space buyers).
So even if you don't need access to £££ immediately, you need some kind of capital to start your own business, especially if you want to have any chance of success - shit, even then, when you've got an established business, actually having talent and focus on your business isn't enough - look at the condition of the businesses on things like Ramsey's kitchen nightmares and similar reality show business guru type stuff.
Anarchism (and communism) require a wholly different approach to life from those who wish to live in it. Somewhere earlier in the thread, RMP3 talks about factory workers making the decision about how much they produce - a situation which, if repeated across society, would quickly see dissatisfaction set in and things would start to regress. It also betrays a notion of social ownership that is capitalist in mentality - those who work with the means of production (i.e .those factory workers) own those means of production (I suspect that's not what you meant RMP3, but that's how it sounds).
Anyhoo...
Not only that, though, winning the right to control your own working conditions and money etc etc still doesn't amount to 'having control of your life' let alone freedom in any meaningful sense of the word.
Freedom is an abstraction; it doesn't actually exist anywhere.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Join the dots Edie...what is happening with this corruption? It's channeling our money into private hands. Your solution seems to be based on the same approach - get some money (where from?) and start making more money. Sorry, but that's exactly the problem! Running things for private profit, not for social need.
Well yer VP, I'd agree that central government are unlikely to let go of the current power and control they have, cos it serves making them richer. I think we probably need to just completely get the current bunch of cunts out of there and replace them with people who are genuinely from the local communities they serve, who can have no outside interests or companies, who are replaced regularly and can be recalled at any time. And more, many more, national decisions need to be by referendum (where we can all vote X-factor style).
Almost all the money that is collected in tax can then be given back to local populations to spend on education/ hospitals/ roads. Then people have to get off there arses and actually get involved. Make some decisions for themselves, help run there own workplaces and set up a lot more businesses off there own backs, volunteer to help each other out and care for other people in the community. If the Amish didn't believe in God I'd probably reckon they have the right idea.
Well you say that communism failed cos of the social/ political context it was set up in. Well maybe, bit of a lame excuse though.
I have no idea how to get rid of the central government we currently have. No idea. It seems insane to me that such a small percentage of people can fuck us over. Maybe we are all just comfortable enough not to be arsed to do anything about it. After all, we've got it better than probably almost any other people at any other time. Maybe we are just better off accepting that although it is unfair that a small percentage have fucktons more than us, it's a price worth paying for the stability and relative wealth we have. I don't know. Sometimes I get angry about it, other times I think fuckin sort it out, we're better off now than we've ever been.
You can fuck off with your patronising 'bored housewife with kids' anyway you fuckin prick. Yer that's what us women are, just bored housewives. What a fuckin tool. Mind you, if you can work out what ideological agenda I am pushing, could you let me know as it would probably help me out
kthnxbai. Prick.But Blags, what's the alternative? That ALL money is pooled centrally? For social good? Surely that is just setting up a situation ready for corruption. Money is power, put it all in one place and get some people in to decide what goes where, and you will set up a situation where they sneakily look after there own.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Socialised production. That is, democratic control in the form of worker's councils or similar. Imagine a workplace or community where we delegated power up instead of down. Where we voted for someone to carry out democratically discussed wishes, where we could recall them if they didn't. Heck, imagine if we could just recall the MPs we currently have for breaking promises (hello Nick Clegg). Wouldn't that be a start?
I don't fuckin know, I'm not a revolutionary! I'm not keen on the idea of any kind of massive revolution cos I like central heating and food in the shops and I don't want people I love killed.
How does anyone else think it will ever change? Maybe it wont. I think this kind of thing is probably all fantasy anyway, and at the end of the day you have to do the best you can for you and yours with how things are. That's what we are doing anyway. I do my bit for those worse off than me, but I hope I can send my kids to private school at the end of the day cos they will have a better life.
Yes! That would be a start. I'd like to see that happen. I really would. I wanna go for a chat with Greg Mulholland (my local MP, he's alright actually) about the fuckin farce that has become the Liberal Democrats. I wanna ask him to become an independent given the situation. Otherwise he can fuck off if he thinks I'll ever vote for him again.
Well you say that communism failed cos of the social/ political context it was set up in. Well maybe, bit of a lame excuse though.
I have no idea how to get rid of the central government we currently have. No idea. It seems insane to me that such a small percentage of people can fuck us over. Maybe we are all just comfortable enough not to be arsed to do anything about it. After all, we've got it better than probably almost any other people at any other time. Maybe we are just better off accepting that although it is unfair that a small percentage have fucktons more than us, it's a price worth paying for the stability and relative wealth we have. I don't know. Sometimes I get angry about it, other times I think fuckin sort it out, we're better off now than we've ever been.
You can fuck off with your patronising 'bored housewife with kids' anyway you fuckin prick. Yer that's what us women are, just bored housewives. What a fuckin tool. Mind you, if you can work out what ideological agenda I am pushing, could you let me know as it would probably help me out
Not I don't say communism failed at all. What happened was that government by a particular strain of Marxist organisation and ideology, subject to the historical and cultural conditions in certain times and places, ran their course and, for the most part, dismantled themselves. Their main role historically was probably in establishing the conditions for capitalism where they were for the most part previously absent. There has been no other 'communism' to 'fail.' (Personally, I don't think there will be; but neither do I think the dysfunctional capitalist system can last forever.)
We're not fucked over by a small number of people in parliament. Those in parliament are there because 'we' continue to put them there-and they're not even in control of what goes on but have to follow an agenda set by the corporate backers on which they depend. Your world of rich parliamentarians and central government officials oppressing everybody else is entirely imaginary.
I didn't say 'that's what women are, bored housewives'. I said that I don't, on the basis of those posts of yours I've read, buy your 'I'm only a wife and mother who sometimes agonises over political questions' act. Because you seem to me somebody wants to push some ill-digested ultra-free marketeer agenda and criticise a 'communist' ideology that exists only in the imaginations of whoever it is that influences you. Sorry about that (no, actually, I'm not sorry.)
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
How about getting off the idea of using money as the only means of exchange and reward for goods & services. That the kinds of goods & services being provided aren't done for private profit anywhere - the very notion of 'private industry', owned by individuals, doesn't exist. What you're doing at the moment is taking the current system of rationing via paper currency and trying to shoehorn it into a context where ownership and consumerism don't exist in the same way they do now.
You seem a little uptight for somebody who, in the final analysis has nothing to say about the very things you've spent so many posts advocating.
You say communism went so fucked up cos of a specific political/ society context. Well maybe, sounds like a bit of a lame excuse though.
I've made no secret that I've thought about ultra-free markets in the past. I'm right wing, so fuckin what? Which bit of wife, mother or someone who has political questions don't you believe you nutter
I'm under no illusions that our MPs are influenced and controlled by business. Cash for questions, MPs leaving then using there political influence when they are on company boards, giving public contracts to there mates companies. It's all corrupt as fuck. I'm interested in why you think we continue to put them there? Why don't you tell me some of your own views and answers? As for freedom being an imaginary thing, well that sounds like lefty bollox to me. I don't reckon you'd be saying that if you lived in North Korea, or Stalinist Russia in the past.
kyser- you mean like bartering or exchange? What other rewards would there be for people who worked hard, took risks and wanted to better themselves?
You seem to not have the balls to just fuckin out and say what your trying to get at. Man up and spit it out.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
You can talk!
You've said you don't think I'm a wife, mother or someone who questions politics. I really don't have any comeback other than YOU NUTTER!
Also you haven't said what you'd like to see happen. What you'd like to see change, and how. Why? Cos it's easier to criticise than to actually say what you reckon and be attacked? Or cos you think I'm a deep undercover ultra-free-marketeer? lol
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