Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[J Ed]

From the experience of female friends, I have no trouble believing that LP would receive sexist abuse, especially when talking about gender issues. In fact, I've *seen* some of it on the Guido Fawkes website.

It just makes me really sad when, rather than focusing on that abuse for what it is, she conflates it with the stuff that people write on here to delegitimise any criticism.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I got quite a few bonkers nasty shut-up-you-bitch comments on a blog I did about Reeva Steenkamp. And a few on others I've done since. Certain subject matter attracts the type.

All bloggers get nasty, crazy, shit from time to time, or at least all bloggers with an audience over a certain, small, size. Women bloggers definitely get more of it than men do, and it also tends to be gendered in its viciousness. Women bloggers who blog about feminist issues get drastically more again. Which stands to reason, as a disproportionate number of the kind of absolute dickheads who leave threatening abuse on blogs are misogynists. And a disproportionate number of misogynists are going to be particularly riled up by "uppity" women's opinions.

Whatever other criticisms can be justifiably made of Laurie Penny, she's not making this up or exaggerating it.

 

[equationgirl]

From the experience of female friends, I have no trouble believing that LP would receive sexist abuse, especially when talking about gender issues. In fact, I've *seen* some of it on the Guido Fawkes website.

It just makes me really sad when, rather than focusing on that abuse for what it is, she conflates it with the stuff that people write on here to delegitimise any criticism.

This. Abuse is not the same as legitimate criticism. Saying I don't like something she's written for X reason e.g. I don't agree with her arguments doesn't make that abusive or misogynistic. and her brief forays onto the thread have been mainly her marching on, saying we're all misogynists and marching away again.

A few times there have been glimmers of dialogue, which was excellent but all too fleeting.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

From the experience of female friends, I have no trouble believing that LP would receive sexist abuse, especially when talking about gender issues. In fact, I've *seen* some of it on the Guido Fawkes website.

It just makes me really sad when, rather than focusing on that abuse for what it is, she conflates it with the stuff that people write on here to delegitimise any criticism.

It's probably not always disingenuous. If I got torrents of abuse from right wing shitheads, and a smaller but regular dose of criticism from elsewhere, I'd tend to conflate the two sometimes as well. Even with the best will in the world, I'd be reading the incoming attacks with certain jaundiced expectations.

(Of course, I'd also deliberately conflate the two from time to time, but I'm cynical like that).

 

[equationgirl]

To be fair to LP, she probably gets a ton of nasty comments. I don't blame her for feeling under attack and angry.

 

[J Ed]

It's probably not always disingenuous. If I got torrents of abuse from right wing shitheads, and a smaller but regular dose of criticism from elsewhere, I'd tend to conflate the two sometimes as well. Even with the best will in the world, I'd be reading the incoming attacks with certain jaundiced expectations.

(Of course, I'd also deliberately conflate the two from time to time, but I'm cynical like that).

I think there's a bit of both going on.

 

[Delroy Booth]

It's probably not always disingenuous. If I got torrents of abuse from right wing shitheads, and a smaller but regular dose of criticism from elsewhere, I'd tend to conflate the two sometimes as well. Even with the best will in the world, I'd be reading the incoming attacks with certain jaundiced expectations.

(Of course, I'd also deliberately conflate the two from time to time, but I'm cynical like that).

yeah that's true, just search laurie penny on twitter at any given time and there's some vile stuff out there it's pretty disturbing, it's bound to run into one if you're on the receiving end. We'd do the same if we were in that position.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Firky

 

[smokedout]

Im not saying that it never happens, of course it does, im questioning whether this is the norm, and also whether it is beyond the misogyny which exists outside of the net

in fact fuck it, im not saying anything other than my experience of blogging, as a man, but mostly blogging about benefits which is hardly the most endearing subject to some people

I'm not sure I'm articulating this very well and will come back to it tomorrow, but my experience is that given what I'm saying I'm constantly surprised how little shit i get, and the people who comment on my blog get, not how much

Misogyny is far less of a comment moderation problem than racism, or threatening to burn down the local jobcentre

 

[J Ed]

smokedout what's your blog about exactly? I think that the content of your blog has a lot to do with it, social justice type blogs tend to attract a lot of nastiness.

I notice this at my uni too, the women's officer and women's councillor always receive far more abuse than any other elected student politicians and whenever either say anything in student media or on facebook they receive a lot of very angry abuse from what seem to me to be very hateful males.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Im not saying that it never happens, of course it does, im questioning whether this is the norm, and also whether it is beyond the misogyny which exists outside of the net

Anonymity and distance allow people to be much ruder and more loudly vicious than they would be in real life. That goes for generally aggressive and dismissive behaviour, of a sort that anyone can be on the receiving end of, but it also goes for bigotry.

Misogyny is far less of a comment moderation problem than racism, or threatening to burn down the local jobcentre

If you were primarily blogging about, say, maternity leave rather than benefits in general, you'd get more of it. And if you were a woman blogging about it, more still.

 

[weepiper]

Er. I think you might be missing the point a bit tbh smokedout. I can guarantee you that if you were publicly female with the same blog you would get a whole heap more shit for exactly the same content.

 

[smokedout]

Er. I think you might be missing the point a bit tbh smokedout. I can guarantee you that if you were publicly female with the same blog you would get a whole heap more shit for exactly the same content.

that was the point in my head i was failing to articulate. having said that, im not sure that a lot of the benefit bloggers, many of whom are women, get the kind of shit that laurie alludes to. i will ask them.

 

[toggle]

Im not saying that it never happens, of course it does, im questioning whether this is the norm, and also whether it is beyond the misogyny which exists outside of the net

yes it is the norm for women bloggers to get a lot of sexual threats. it's normal for feminist bloggers to get more.

i'd accuse LP of lying if she claimed to never revieve rape threats.

 

[JimW]

Im not saying that it never happens, of course it does, im questioning whether this is the norm, and also whether it is beyond the misogyny which exists outside of the net...

read something about it happening in the world of science blogging (ETA: as an example of somewhere you might not expect from the topic); think it goes beyond what happens in the offline world because of that famous enabling power of anonymity/lack of social restraints and the ability the technology affords these types to interact with women.

 

[smokedout]

im prepared to concede i am mostly talking bollocks, but its bollocks based in honesty, my blog has had 30,000 comments over the years, many made by women, and some on posts about overtly feminist issues, I cant remember one sexual threat out of those

 

[toggle]

im prepared to concede i am mostly talking bollocks, but its bollocks based in honesty, my blog has had 30,000 comments over the years, many made by women, and some on posts about overtly feminist issues, I cant remember one sexual threat out of those

http://feministadminssupport.blogsp...iately-rapebook-page.html?zx=1436ee65aa110d9d

 

[toggle]

that is specifically about faqcebook, but might highlight the scale of the problem women face

 

[equationgirl]

im prepared to concede i am mostly talking bollocks, but its bollocks based in honesty, my blog has had 30,000 comments over the years, many made by women, and some on posts about overtly feminist issues, I cant remember one sexual threat out of those

But, with respect, you are a man. I think it's great you've had so many comments, and that they're not rape threats but it is sadly an established fact that many female bloggers have received rape threats. In this instance I have every confidence that such threats are made in order to attempt to re-establish 'power' in favour of the person making the threat, it's using the ultimate weapon for the ultimate put-down. It's not about sex at all, it's about power.

 

[smokedout]

I'm not denying theres a problem, i really hope people dont think that, im just unsure of lauries claims that this is a problem on the internet above and beyond what is experienced by most women in society, therefore women should approach the internet with special care if they wish to speak out.

 

[smokedout]

sorry eq, was responding to toggle

am gonna shut up, its a difficult position to argue and ive fucked it up.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I'm not denying theres a problem, i really hope people dont think that, im just unsure of lauries claims that this is a problem on the internet above and beyond what is experienced by most women in society, therefore women should approach the internet with special care if they wish to speak out.

As others have said women do face extra problems on the international due to anonymity and distance above and beyond what they would irl quite often

 

[equationgirl]

I'm not denying theres a problem, i really hope people dont think that, im just unsure of lauries claims that this is a problem on the internet above and beyond what is experienced by most women in society, therefore women should approach the internet with special care if they wish to speak out.

It's difficult to quantify properly. I suspect it depends largely on if a woman blogs or not, and what she writes about. It's already been highlighted that certain subjects - social issues, benefits, feminism - seem to be hot buttons for some people out there and seem to attract the more nasty comments including threats like these. Some sites are very restrictive (a gaming forum I know is heavily, almost restrively moderated and any off-topic comments are removed immediately, never mind any abuse), for example, others like this site are very laid back in comparison (although threats off this nature would not be tolerated)

But every site? What about the BBC comments, Amazon or the Guardian, for example? We already know that youtube and DM comments tend to be quite bile-filled anyway.

 

[smokedout]

As others have said women do face extra problems on the international due to anonymity and distance above and beyond what they would irl quite often

in my experience violence that happens irl is somewhat more traumatic than that carried out online and its dangerous to conflate the two as seems to be happening

 

[toggle]

I'm not denying theres a problem, i really hope people dont think that, im just unsure of lauries claims that this is a problem on the internet above and beyond what is experienced by most women in society, therefore women should approach the internet with special care if they wish to speak out.

I think she is absolutely right in this. I'm careful about how far I go in linking stuff to my real name, even though I have to do a certain amount of this.

if i was specifically feminist campaigning, i'd be doing so making sure there is no connection to my actual identity.because there is always the risk one of those fruitloops may be a local.

and even if they are 500 miles away or mjore, someone telling you in detail how they want to rape and murder you and your family is not an enjoyable way to start the day.

 

[toggle]

in my experience violence that happens irl is somewhat more traumatic than that carried out online and its dangerous to conflate the two as seems to be happening

i find the online threats deeply distressing. i've expereinced rape and domestic violence and i find it disturbing and triggering.

i also find it deeply upsetting when someone tries to tell me what my reaction to rape threats should be, particularly if they have not experienced this. and have real life expereinces of misogenist violence and rape to compare it to.

 

[J Ed]

in my experience violence that happens irl is somewhat more traumatic than that carried out online and its dangerous to conflate the two as seems to be happening

I know a self-described "mens' rights activist" whose misogyny was as far as I know limited to online misogyny, a couple of weeks ago he was arrested for being the shit out of his girlfriend.

 

[toggle]

sorry eq, was responding to toggle

am gonna shut up, its a difficult position to argue and ive fucked it up.

she may be lying about the particular experience she claims, but i'd probably not want to memorise quotes from a dozen descriptions of how my next rape should be. so she uses an example designed to make the general point. i'd probably do the same.

I'm no fan of the woman, i think she does a lot of us a major diservice and her claims that all criticism of her is an -ism is bullshit. but even she can be right ocasionally. and i'd suspect the abuse she gets is likely more graphic than she is saying in talks.

 

[toggle]

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...n-results-thread.309781/page-35#post-12212174

the fruitloop site linked to off that (cornwallcommunitynews), bloke probably lives 5 miles from me, or less.

 

[frogwoman]

online threats can be really scary and upsetting, when i was about 14 or 15 and used to go on fash boards to argue with them (yes, yes i know) i used to get rape threats etc, some were really scary and to be honest i was a bit traumatised by it.

she gets a lot of horrible shit online. it doesn't mean that we cant criticise her obviously but i think the reason some people might go towards this intersectional stuff may be because they think that sort of thing doesnt get taken seriously.