Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[cesare]

If anyone had the time and/or inclination it'd be interesting to see an intersectional* analysis by class.

* Yes I know the drawbacks of reducing analysis to intersectionality.

 

[smokedout]

i find the online threats deeply distressing. i've expereinced rape and domestic violence and i find it disturbing and triggering.

i also find it deeply upsetting when someone tries to tell me what my reaction to rape threats should be, particularly if they have not experienced this. and have real life expereinces of misogenist violence and rape to compare it to.

ok thats fair enough, sorry, it was a throw away comment and a bit crass

i'd suspect the abuse she gets is likely more graphic than she is saying in talks.

tbh, the example she gives is graphic, and is the one she usually uses, but the other example shes often given of this misogyny is this thread, and she has referred to urban75 as a hate site

but im sceptical of the idea that this is something that is endemic on the net above and beyond the rest of the world, that a woman blogging is more likely to face this kind of shit than a woman working in a bar, in customer services, social work etc where some degree of conflict is an inevitable part of working life - thats not to excuse any of it, or suggest it should be ignored of course

and i dont understand why if lp is deluged with this stuff there isnt more of it elsewhere, far right sites, 4 chan and teenagers on youtube excepted, why not on this site, or on the benefits sites, or even guido, where casual sexism is the norm, but the type of stuff graphic threats being discussed is really an exception and gets removed

you can look and see what people are saying to and about lp on twitter, and its mostly people saying nice things, or people from this thread having a pop, so where does she get this torrent of graphic abusive messages that she claims happen everyday, shes not public on facebook, does she really get daily threats of violence to her email address - and if she does, which is shocking and inexcusable, is this not a result of being famous and on television rather than being a blogger

 

[Jim Pooley]

but im sceptical of the idea that this is something that is endemic on the net above and beyond the rest of the world, that a woman blogging is more likely to face this kind of shit than a woman working in a bar, in customer services, social work etc where some degree of conflict is an inevitable part of working life - thats not to excuse any of it, or suggest it should be ignored of course

One major difference is that conflict at work ends when the working day ends, while abuse via the net continues 24/7. Plus anyone can be targeted by online threats, not just those who meet lots of strangers via work.

 

[kavenism]

Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed11m
Sometimes there are mornings where the trolling and viciousness get almost unbearable and the only solution is to write something good.

Thing is I might have more sympathy if she didn't wallow in it quite so much.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed11m
Sometimes there are mornings where the trolling and viciousness get almost unbearable and the only solution is to write something good.

Thing is I might have more sympathy if she didn't wallow in it quite so much.

I've got sympathy for her, on this. It must be fucking shite. I know she's fairly high-profile in certain areas but no matter how semi-famous or not, no-one deserves the sort of shit she gets. Describing her as wallowing in it is the first step towards saying "get over it". She shouldn't have to.

I've been on here, and Twitter, and had arguments, and the only abuse I ever got that genuinely put the willies up me was someone saying on the Telegraph blogs - out of nowehere - that they had a bullet for me. Preposterous, but the nature of it is irrelevant - a threat to do me actual harm has happened ONCE.

 

[kavenism]

She doesn’t have to get over it, but perhaps I’m just cynical in thinking that all of this is an extension of her self-orbiting shtick. After all she specialises in a specifically polemical form of op-ed writing, frames herself as an engaged activist rather than a desk warrior, and seemingly delights in the fact that she winds a lot of people up. Given this I take her oh so shocked by online abuse stance with a pinch of salt, especially as has already been pointed out she uses it as a means of deflecting and discrediting legitimate criticism of her work. Once she quits doing that my sympathy levels will no doubt rise.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Her achievements include, blogging, tweeting and being awesome?

I turned it off at that point.

Watched it to 8 minutes, she says a lot of obvious stuff but nothing new so far. I'll give it a proper watch tomorrow.

She's a terrible public speaker, very nervous. I wouldn't like to stand up and give a speech like that, can't be easy.

Her body language is interesting, especially as the video progresses. She's obviously done the "basic training" for public speaking (she's not making "closed" gestures like drawing her hands toward herself when she gesticulates, or folding her arms, for instance), but the amount of tension in her posture all the way through is weird - people usually relax as the speaking engagement progresses.
Dr. Panda's diagnosis? - I think that she was busking it a bit, and that's why the nerves.

 

[ViolentPanda]

i've got to say, you disseminating someone's speech habits is a bit sad really, get a life before i can't be bothered to carry on with you.

"Disseminating someone's speech habits"?
Yeah, because remarking on how someone locutes is so offensive, isn't it?

So Paul, which axe are you grinding, and why do you believe that your being bothered to "carry on" with anyone carries any weight?

 

[frogwoman]

Her body language is interesting, especially as the video progresses. She's obviously done the "basic training" for public speaking (she's not making "closed" gestures like drawing her hands toward herself when she gesticulates, or folding her arms, for instance), but the amount of tension in her posture all the way through is weird - people usually relax as the speaking engagement progresses.
Dr. Panda's diagnosis? - I think that she was busking it a bit, and that's why the nerves.

to be fair if she was talking about nasty shit like getting threats etc i'd be a bit nervous as well.

 

[ViolentPanda]

5 minutes was enough

I think she's lying. She keeps on using the same grim quote as evidence that any woman who writes on the net will face a wall of misogynist abuse. Now I'm not a women, but Ive had a blog a long time that probably had just as many hits as hers ever had, and I get surprisingly little abuse - although i could point out a few pretty overt threats of violence and present this as the norm if i chose - but its not.

I find it hard to believe that only women bloggers would get the constant stream of abuse she claims to have had. On the other hand political blogging is shamefully male dominated and people like guido ramp up the macho factor, but outside of lp and her circle I just havent heard women bloggers complain about this - above and beyond the misogynist shit that exists in everyday life

if badgerskitten is lurking perhaps she'd comment (guess not) but urbs very own high profile female blogger, who got a lot of real life shit from conspiracy people and documented it here and elsewhere certainly never spoke about what lp describes

and the reason this matters is that she gives this as a warning in the first five mins of that speech, that if young women speak out on the internet they will be met with this wall of gender based abuse - I'm more than willing to be proved wrong, but i dont believe thats true, and she is actively putting off young women writers by inventing what seems to be little more than a concept for her latest self-publicity drive and book.

(this is not meant to undermine the sexist shit that is all over the net, just the argument that any women who wants to speak out online will face what lp describes)

I don't believe she's lying, but she comes across as way too tense to be "comfortable" with her material, so I'm of the opinion she on a blag - the usual "I haven't studied/revised properly, so I'll busk it and hope for the best, and that my reputation blinds people to any flaws or bald spots in my material" type of thing. Maybe the book will be more rounded. I'd certainly hope so.

 

[ViolentPanda]

to be fair if she was talking about nasty shit like getting threats etc i'd be a bit nervous as well.

Thing is, you'd still wind down your tension level, even if recalling that stuff winds you up. She stays in a pretty constant state of tension throughout.

 

[frogwoman]

Thing is, you'd still wind down your tension level, even if recalling that stuff winds you up. She stays in a pretty constant state of tension throughout.

i don't think you can say how you would or wouldn't react tbh.

 

[kavenism]

Thing is, you'd still wind down your tension level, even if recalling that stuff winds you up. She stays in a pretty constant state of tension throughout.

TBH her public appearances do seem to veer from 'isn't this so ironic I’m waving an e-sig at Andrew Neil' to the 'I'm outta my depth let's just accuse someone of tax evasion' variety.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm extremely reluctant to accuse somebody of lying about stuff like that and also about what their feelings were about it, it might not be rational and stuff but online threats can really scare the shit out of people.

 

[ViolentPanda]

i don't think you can say how you would or wouldn't react tbh.

Well, I kind of can ( ), because I understand some of the physiological and psychological mechanisms that underlie the behaviour. The stress involved in recalling stuff like that is episodic - like peaks on a linear graph. Her tension on that fillum isn't episodic, it's constant.
So, while I can't say "this individual is behaving strangely", I can say "she's not behaving according to standard models of emotional stress", and then take a punt as to the cause. It is only a punt, though.

 

[toggle]

ok thats fair enough, sorry, it was a throw away comment and a bit crass



tbh, the example she gives is graphic, and is the one she usually uses, but the other example shes often given of this misogyny is this thread, and she has referred to urban75 as a hate site

but im sceptical of the idea that this is something that is endemic on the net above and beyond the rest of the world, that a woman blogging is more likely to face this kind of shit than a woman working in a bar, in customer services, social work etc where some degree of conflict is an inevitable part of working life - thats not to excuse any of it, or suggest it should be ignored of course

and i dont understand why if lp is deluged with this stuff there isnt more of it elsewhere, far right sites, 4 chan and teenagers on youtube excepted, why not on this site, or on the benefits sites, or even guido, where casual sexism is the norm, but the type of stuff graphic threats being discussed is really an exception and gets removed

you can look and see what people are saying to and about lp on twitter, and its mostly people saying nice things, or people from this thread having a pop, so where does she get this torrent of graphic abusive messages that she claims happen everyday, shes not public on facebook, does she really get daily threats of violence to her email address - and if she does, which is shocking and inexcusable, is this not a result of being famous and on television rather than being a blogger

can you go flick through some of the feminist blogs on this.

it's not that it isn't happening, it's that you don't see it cause it's not happening in front of you.

 

[frogwoman]

Well, I kind of can ( ), because I understand some of the physiological and psychological mechanisms that underlie the behaviour. The stress involved in recalling stuff like that is episodic - like peaks on a linear graph. Her tension on that fillum isn't episodic, it's constant.
So, while I can't say "this individual is behaving strangely", I can say "she's not behaving according to standard models of emotional stress", and then take a punt as to the cause. It is only a punt, though.

to be fair i'm in a pretty constant state of tension most of the time, dont think that its fair to criticise somebody over that, its like looking at polygraphs to see if someone did a crime. there's a shit load to criticise about our laurie but this is not one of them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

TBH her public appearances do seem to veer from 'isn't this so ironic I’m waving an e-sig at Andrew Neil' to the 'I'm outta my depth let's just accuse someone of tax evasion' variety.

Hmm, I was deliberately trying to not think about the Starkey debacle! The look on Starkey's boat when he gets all puffed up and angry still makes me laugh whenever I re-watch that!
But yeah, she's seemed perfectly "at home" recalling what we might call "traumatic stuff" at some venues, and does give the impression that having "not done her homework" is a regular feature in her life.

 

[_angel_]

Well, I kind of can ( ), because I understand some of the physiological and psychological mechanisms that underlie the behaviour. The stress involved in recalling stuff like that is episodic - like peaks on a linear graph. Her tension on that fillum isn't episodic, it's constant.
So, while I can't say "this individual is behaving strangely", I can say "she's not behaving according to standard models of emotional stress", and then take a punt as to the cause. It is only a punt, though.

You're sounding like another person here who declared Amanda Knox guilty on the basis of crying when she was convicted. weird. I wouldn't want either of you at my trial!

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm extremely reluctant to accuse somebody of lying about stuff like that and also about what their feelings were about it, it might not be rational and stuff but online threats can really scare the shit out of people.

No-one's accusing her of lying, frogs.

 

[frogwoman]

Hmm, I was deliberately trying to not think about the Starkey debacle! The look on Starkey's boat when he gets all puffed up and angry still makes me laugh whenever I re-watch that!
But yeah, she's seemed perfectly "at home" recalling what we might call "traumatic stuff" at some venues, and does give the impression that having "not done her homework" is a regular feature in her life.

to be fair i've talked about traumatic stuff before and not been traumatised by it at one point and then talked about it at another time and had a cry afterwards. it doesnt mean anything, you cant tell if someone is being dishonest by body language, its like thinking lie detectors are a good way of catching criminals, it's bollocks.

 

[cesare]

I'm extremely reluctant to accuse somebody of lying about stuff like that and also about what their feelings were about it, it might not be rational and stuff but online threats can really scare the shit out of people.

She has written about her own experience of rape, and it's a fact that she's the recipient of some unpleasant sexist comments/threats. When she's talking about this, I don't find it that much of a leap to think that vocalising it brings it home and to the forefront of her consciousness. While she's talking she's reliving experiences and that's hard to do in a relaxed manner.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You're sounding like another person here who declared Amanda Knox guilty on the basis of crying when she was convicted. weird. I wouldn't want either of you at my trial!

Fine by me. Why would I want to attend your trial, or any trial for that matter?

What are you charged with, by the way?

 

[_angel_]

to be fair i've talked about traumatic stuff before and not been traumatised by it at one point and then talked about it at another time and had a cry afterwards. it doesnt mean anything, you cant tell if someone is being dishonest by body language, its like thinking lie detectors are a good way of catching criminals, it's bollocks.

Yes. We're back into telling rape victims how to behave and that's depressing territory.

 

[frogwoman]

There are people who lie about this sort of thing but they are few and far between and i need some fucking good evidence to start accusing someone of it. i don't like laurie at all but i've seen no evidence she'd lie about something like this.

 

[treelover]

Anyone watched this yet?



I don't know if I can bring myself to

The comments section is horrifying

GorillaMountain 4 hours ago
Brilliant. Penny is one of the most eloquent feminist intellectuals on the net, engaged wholly in the cultures she's critiquing. I can't wait to read this book and get more depth.

where was this, who funded it, tax on door?

 

[treelover]

that was the point in my head i was failing to articulate. having said that, im not sure that a lot of the benefit bloggers, many of whom are women, get the kind of shit that laurie alludes to. i will ask them.

Sue Marsh of 'Diary of a Benefit scrounger' received masses of abuse, etc, but afaik, it wasn't gendered, but attacks along the lines of 'how dare disabled claimants speak out'.

However, I can well imagine women bloggers getting horrendous abuse..

 

[treelover]

I've got sympathy for her, on this. It must be fucking shite. I know she's fairly high-profile in certain areas but no matter how semi-famous or not, no-one deserves the sort of shit she gets. Describing her as wallowing in it is the first step towards saying "get over it". She shouldn't have to.

I've been on here, and Twitter, and had arguments, and the only abuse I ever got that genuinely put the willies up me was someone saying on the Telegraph blogs - out of nowehere - that they had a bullet for me. Preposterous, but the nature of it is irrelevant - a threat to do me actual harm has happened ONCE.

its not the same but everyday people on here spend ages and in great graphical detail describing what they would like to do to Tory M.P's etc, for me in these cases, its a sign of political weakness.

 

[toggle]

There are people who lie about this sort of thing but they are few and far between and i need some fucking good evidence to start accusing someone of it. i don't like laurie at all but i've seen no evidence she'd lie about something like this.

and i don't like the assumptions a lot of people have, which is to assume that something that isn't within their direct experience is a lie.

can some of the male posters go compare their everyday life to what is written on everydaysexism. think about how much shit happens to women and how women feel about this shit, before they start assuming that their experiences are the whole world's experiences.

 

[SpineyNorman]

its not the same but everyday people on here spend ages and in great graphical detail describing what they would like to do to Tory M.P's etc, for me in these cases, its a sign of political weakness.

Very true. If we weren't politically weak we'd be doing it rather than talking about it.