Iron Law of Oligarchy mate
Doesn't matter what the General Assembly says, the ones running the twitter account decide when Year Zero begins.
Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags
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Iron Law of Oligarchy mate
Doesn't matter what the General Assembly says, the ones running the twitter account decide when Year Zero begins.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
She's said nothing. It was an empty interview the guy and his minders got a free meal on the back of New Statesman subscribers.
It's great you don't still believe things like this any more:
Aaron Peters said:
(stick around)Do you think Laurie Penny's journalism of the student movement helped it or hindered it from having a serious working-class base?
quotes in this post, for eg, are from LP's long piece in the New Statesman later recycled for the Indie etc.
Honest question.
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
sorely tempted with the promised bounty. we looked into my visiting family in the UK this summer. We can't afford the cheapest plane tickets.
eta: apologies for the off-topic reply.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Without preempting his answer, I don't see how it was really likely to make a blind bit of difference either way. I mean who buys the fucking New Statesman or the Independent in the first place?
Sir you parody the great work of Proletarian Democracy. Beware, that when the workers' bomb is constructed there will be dangerous life-threatening work to be done. You are now on the list of volunteers to do that work.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
How does open democracy work?
How important Rosemary Bechler also part of Unlock Democracy?
Is Clare Sambrook at open democracy any relation to Richard Sambrook the BBC Executive? (not implying she is, just asking)
classicdish
Well-Known Member
This one? http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkin...ters/audio-new-media-and-british-commentariat
The British media is exceptional in its status as part of the political class. But with the newsroom becoming defunct as a site of cultural production, and models of journalistic authority breaking down, this role is threatened. Laurie Penny and James Butler discuss, hosted by Aaron Peters.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Volunteering? Surely PD should embrace monetizing as a concept?
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
That's why I'm asking - did it impact the perception of what was going on on the ground - over egging the pudding sort of thing. This is the only place where I have any connection with universities.
eg did a fellow socialist mind being described like this: "Ben Beach is the Justin Bieber of the new left: a baby-faced riot messiah from Bethnal Green in east London"
Aaron Peters
New Member
Re Laurie and student movement (I think episode is better term, didn't have the institutions or even a shared identity among participants to ever go beyond December 9th vote imho) have to agree with fact that at the end of the day v few people read Indy/ NS and I think the stuff between Millbank and December 9th, nationally, was far bigger than that. End of the day the major reason why it couldn't be sustained after December 9th was that even own union was incapable of doing *anything* about what was clearly a huge grievance among FH/ HE students. That said it discredited coalition government far earlier than many had presumed would be the case and its relationship to August riots ( was in Tottenham night it kicked off as an observing social scientist *of course*) shouldn't be underestimated. Yeah tbh Laurie's stuff, like other journos, didn't make much difference with regards to participants/ prospective participants. I certainly regret doing that NS thing, but again, at end of the day was of v little consequence to success/ failure of things (more importantly for me is that people I respect still think I was a dickhead for doing it)
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
That's sort of a different question though. Ben Beach, whoever the fuck Ben Beach is, and really what sort of name is that anyway, was probably embarrassed to be described in that fashion in a national publication. But I doubt if if made much difference to whether the movement had "a working class base".
These sort of writers are epiphenomena rather than causes.
Aaron Peters
New Member
'end of the day' three times, apols, obvs watching too many football interviews atm
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
I agree with Nigel. Didn't make much difference. Not just because no-one but the metropolitan 'elite' read that stuff but because the problems facing that kind of alliance are so much bigger than Laurie Penny. I don't know why I'm choosing this thread to make a serious point but here we go:
There is no shared political language that is in use both by the middle class and the working class, and not only not shared - there is barely a political language of our times at all - where I come from anyway. In the SE of england at least there is little collective memory of the kind of language and ideas that used to mobilise people. Most people look at you blankly if you try to talk about politics as something extraparliamentary. I've lived in London most of my adult life but I was raised elsewhere in SE England and where I come from there is a political base of fuck all.
So anyone trying to start *any* kind of political movement comes up against this massive problem of not having language to talk about their situation, particularly due to the ways the economy in the UK has been restructured, and the extent of the triumph of neoliberal thought - which the old left language never caught up with (Negri and others attempted it but with limited success imo). So the students naturally take language from academia, which makes most people's eyes glaze over, including their fellow students, and then they made what in my opinion was the massive mistake of importing the methods of the moribund 'activist' scene. To a lot of the students this was new and exciting, whereas in reality I think the processes etc create an in-language and also make groups quite inward-looking (I'd be interested in Aaron's thoughts on this now - he was quite keen on the ultrahorizontal approach for the UCL occupation but we've since had the debacle of Occupy). I think the anti-globalisation movement had failed to build alliances too and partly for the same reason = that they were obsessed with process.
So that was a mistake I think but my main point is that the size of the challenge in building an alliance between students and the 'working class' is enormous. You basically need to build a new political language and new forms of organisation and everything from scratch. It's fucking hard, and I haven't seen anyone who has made a dent in it.
So yeah, I think the scale of this problem is such that the likes of LP are pretty irrelevant. We are going to need an explosion of new energy and ideas to get past this impasse and when that happens I don't think people will be reading Laurie Penny.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I believe that the strengths and weaknesses of the student movement against fees, the options open to it, and crucially the degree to which it developed a working class base were determined by much bigger factors than whether or not Laurie Penny wrote some silly shit in a couple of publications of distinctly limited audience.
Ben Beach[/URL said:
It sounds more like the sort of name an aspiring actor-model-singer adopts a few minutes after getting off the bus in LA rather than a real one. Although I should add that I don't really care about the existence of Ben Beach or how he came by his name all that much.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
What the fuck just happened with the formating there?
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
There are working-class students who are students studying - in HE and FE.
As it has been explained to me - certain types of students - and large parts of student journalism - were speaking in the name of a w/c student body - the group that had zero parental assistance, less social capital (hate the phrase but can't think of a better one) often working weekends.
That group saw university as a dangerous/risky endeavour anyway but one which had to be completed without arrest to secure the supposed advantage of taking the studies/qualifications (in the first place). This stuff impacted the movement (whatever it was, however limited or whatever it might have been to people).
Obviously a series of articles in the New Statesman is not the driving factor in this, but given that's it's a thread about journalism and writers that's the question i asked.
Aaron Peters
New Member
On December 9th there seemed to be a convergent collective subjectivity between primarily FE youth and older HE students within universities (who will by now mostly be unemployed/ underemployed grads). This dissipated, the question is why. I don't think the task is as gargantuan as it sounds - there was definitely a convergence between what our Greek comrades refer to as the rioter subject http://sic.communisation.net/en/the-feral-underclass-hits-the-streets and our Lancastrian comrades refer to as the graduate without a future http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/01/graduates-2012-survive-in-cracks-economy (both highly problematic I know but I think they possess some use as terms in understanding present terrain). This convergence has now very clearly gone, the riots perhaps most clearly indicating that.
'So the students naturally take language from academia, which makes most people's eyes glaze over, including their fellow students, and then they made what in my opinion was the massive mistake of importing the methods of the moribund 'activist' scene. To a lot of the students this was new and exciting, whereas in reality I think the processes etc create an in-language and also make groups quite inward-looking (I'd be interested in Aaron's thoughts on this now - he was quite keen on the ultrahorizontal approach for the UCL occupation but we've since had the debacle of Occupy). I think the anti-globalisation movement had failed to build alliances too and partly for the same reason = that they were obsessed with process.'
I agree with much of this - for me Occupy (at least in the UK) undermined much of the confidence I personally had from UCL where I had seen the same model work extraordinarily well (in retrospect this was mostly luck but was also due to fact that this was a homogeneous group in terms of age, grievance, and, although less than might have been expected, class). I can't speak for anywhere else but imagine same holds true for other occupations. I also think the TUC calling a demo on March 26th (organised labour will take over now rejoiced trots, but also many others) was a master stroke in defusing the situation. Finally I also think objective factors are yet to really play out in UK, I think we only really get a movement in this country when interest rates go up and we get something resembling a foreclosure crisis - combine this, potentially, with a weak labour government that promises the world after 2015 (read Papandreou 2009 or Hollande) and I think there is a lot to play for, and things will most definitely *move*. The hope would be that we are ready for that.
'So the students naturally take language from academia, which makes most people's eyes glaze over, including their fellow students, and then they made what in my opinion was the massive mistake of importing the methods of the moribund 'activist' scene. To a lot of the students this was new and exciting, whereas in reality I think the processes etc create an in-language and also make groups quite inward-looking (I'd be interested in Aaron's thoughts on this now - he was quite keen on the ultrahorizontal approach for the UCL occupation but we've since had the debacle of Occupy). I think the anti-globalisation movement had failed to build alliances too and partly for the same reason = that they were obsessed with process.'
I agree with much of this - for me Occupy (at least in the UK) undermined much of the confidence I personally had from UCL where I had seen the same model work extraordinarily well (in retrospect this was mostly luck but was also due to fact that this was a homogeneous group in terms of age, grievance, and, although less than might have been expected, class). I can't speak for anywhere else but imagine same holds true for other occupations. I also think the TUC calling a demo on March 26th (organised labour will take over now rejoiced trots, but also many others) was a master stroke in defusing the situation. Finally I also think objective factors are yet to really play out in UK, I think we only really get a movement in this country when interest rates go up and we get something resembling a foreclosure crisis - combine this, potentially, with a weak labour government that promises the world after 2015 (read Papandreou 2009 or Hollande) and I think there is a lot to play for, and things will most definitely *move*. The hope would be that we are ready for that.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Of course I agree.
But there was a journalism angle - an attempt to portray the people as wholly an instantly radicalised middle-class rebel set - which was not true.
I didn't force you to have a go at his name. He was someone mangled by the type of journalism under discussion.
Aaron Peters
New Member
'But there was a journalism angle - an attempt to portray the people as wholly an instantly radicalised middle-class rebel set - which was not true'
in fairness...
in fairness...
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
There's a few of us about (state school with PhD) so don't feel you have to hide it. It doesn't make you a dickhead unless you behave like one.
Be proud of what you have achieved - you have earnt it
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Sure, but noting the existence of such a journalistic angle is one thing. Attributing to it any significant influence on the course and prospects of the movement is another.
sihhi said:
I'm quite capable of voluntary unpleasantness of a gratuitous sort.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
That's why I asked someone who was properly involved and not people like me filling up the numbers as a non-uni supporter.
Edit: It was a question.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
OK so it didn't particularly mobilise or put off anyone at all - ie it could have been written by anyone didn't any extra special talent.
I don't blame the people being interviewed, doing the NS student special. the way it was written up was a problem. I remember reading it at the time just after the parliament vote i think - didn't know who the author was at the time, thinking WTH?
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
Depends who you mean by "we" really. Not many on the left has being doing enough of the groundwork that builds the kind of networks you'd need on order to respond when "it moves"...
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Has good and bad - the start is all the cliche shots - students with lots of technology and nice clothes, followed by a double-barreled name, then someone travelling from lincoln to london instead of acting where he is (all protest need best go on in the few square miles around london), then mug with the word love kept in focus, plus a half snide attack on earlier student movements 'this isn't what student protests are like' several uni admin offices were occupied / papers burnt in the 1990s weakening the first beginning of fees - major couldn't get them in was left to blair.
the end is good because it lets someone apart from owen jones speak!
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Listened to the first 10 minutes of that - my first time.
'The fact of the newspaper as a public organ is already dying, newspapers are going to die within the next 10 to 15 years.'
I don't really see this at all.
People like Niall Ferguson, Simon Schama, David Starkey are a very particular field they can do history documentaries on the media on the TV.
Academia is hardly being moulded with this kind of production as the end-point? Is it?
Will listen to rest later and post.
I've got a column that even Nelson would be jealous of.
Cravat emptor. Or something. Probably.
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
This is a key point. Last year a bunch of students, including Aaron, were talking about setting up a housing/renters organisation. Not sure what happened to that...
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