Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[frogwoman]

Fair play for signing up and posting on here Aaron.

 

[frogwoman]

FWIW i've seen a few tweets of yours and you've always come across as a decent lad

 

[frogwoman]

Were you 23 when you did that dissident entrepreneur thing? to be fair some of the things i thought when i was that age and younger are fucking embarrassing

Im 25 next month so will probably have even more to be embarrassed about when i'm as old as some of the people on ere

 

[killer b]

I'm embarassed by some stuff I wrote this morning tbf.

 

[frogwoman]

yeah i'm embarrassed about that rubbish fash comparison. an element of truth to it but i went a bit over the top and probably didn't make it clear that it was just that i could imagine them doing it

Also embarrassed about some of the spelling mistakes

 

[Frances Lengel]

Were you 23 when you did that dissident entrepreneur thing? to be fair some of the things i thought when i was that age and younger are fucking embarrassing

Im 25 next month so will probably have even more to be embarrassed about when i'm as old as some of the people on ere

Yeah but you'll qualify for jobseekers allowance at the full single persons rate - Hows about that then for a rite of passage?

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah but you'll qualify for jobseekers allowance at the full single persons rate - Hows about that then for a rite of passage?

oh don't mate i've only just got a full-time job, dont make me think about that shit

 

[cesare]

Yeah but you'll qualify for jobseekers allowance at the full single persons rate - Hows about that then for a rite of passage?

But only have a year left of qualifying for a young persons rail card.

 

[Frances Lengel]

oh don't mate i've only just got a full-time job, dont make me think about that shit

Nice one - I wasn't trying to tek the piss btw (though I don't reckon you thought I was), I can remember though, my giro going up from seventy odd pounds a fortnight to ninety odd pounds when I hit the quarter C. I had a two berth gaffe in Oldham at the time - With an £8 pw heating charge - I'd have been sunk these days with the bedroom tax. I'm glad I grew up when I did. It's fuckin ruthless these days.

 

[Firky]

I love this thread, keeps on giving.

 

[Blagsta]

This is a key point. Last year a bunch of students, including Aaron, were talking about setting up a housing/renters organisation. Not sure what happened to that...

There's some students in Brum setting up a housing co-op.

 

[sihhi]

I'm really not sure it's fair to label him a Situationist.

Debord would be turning in his grave.

He certainly doesn't seem to have gotten anything useful out of them.

As someone who who will happily admit a Sit influence I'm a bait offended to be linked with Malcolm.

I am not linking you. How can we make the judgement, he defines what he is - not us.
For a start, he is anarchist and anarcho-communist


The task is to read Calvino in the present-tense, to be reminded of the secret fire that builds society at a time when we glimpse it breaking free from its smothering institutions around the globe, to stoke that flame and remain fidelitous to its damaged human hearth. Indeed, to live something called Communism.


and also quite situationist influenced and anti-electoral after 2008

What the market, democracy, and monarchy all share in common is that they are forms of meta-negotiation. All three are decisions about how social negotiation will take place and who will be entitled to more or less say i.e. useful speech. Any of these forms suffers from outside attacks by those who would live otherwise, against whom the institutions act. Guy Debord’s description of the spectacle as “absolument dogmatique et en même temps ne peut aboutir réellement â aucun dogme solide” (absolutely dogmatic and at the same time unable to come up with any solid dogma) applies to the permissive systems. The proliferation of discourses afforded by these institutional forms is seemingly wide but severely limited: the market gives us Hot Topic anarcho-punk to J. Crew prep, and our civic free speech provides both Rachel Maddow and Bill O’Reilly-flavored commentary. But communism is not for sale any more than anarchy is on the ballot.

He has often edited pieces that are very approving of Debord, concluding

But if Guy Debord and his merry band had anything to teach the world, it is always to welcome impending situations, particularly those whose kairos may afford opportunity to rediscover the singular pleasures of the body in a way that doesn’t put money in someone else’s pocket.

which often mix low-brow pop culture with high Marxist thought:

Less representatives of their particular American subculture than creatures of their historical moment, The Jersey Shore cast, in their unsentimental sexual pragmatism, embody the general human disposition under neoliberalism. According to David Harvey, neoliberalism “proposes that human well being can best be advanced by liberating individual entrepreneurial freedoms.” If human well-being includes sexual fulfillment, then sexuality is in need of deregulation, so it may become more responsive to entrepreneurial initiative. The Situation is exemplary in this respect. He does not content himself merely with patrolling the boardwalk and nightclubs for willing women.

The New York Times reported on one of the New Inquiry's evening meetings:

"Mr. Osterweil, the frustrated novelist, read from Guy Debord’s “Society of the Spectacle.” Tim Barker, a junior at Columbia, awkwardly admitted that he, too, had chosen a reading from Debord. (What are the odds?)"

 

[Casually Red]

Then what did he think he was doing when he joined the Irish Republican Brotherhood?

as Idris pointed out it was simply to try and get the ride from Maude Gonne . When that didnt work he quickly lost interest in it . She later did ride him but only the once , apparently the experience put her off the notion of sex with yeats for good .
Yeats absolutely shit himself when the 1916 uprising kicked off . He went completely silent until the coast was clear years later despite an explosion of nationalism and republicanism in its immediate aftermath. He did not want in any manner to be identified with republicanism and was most likely terrified his poetic identification with nationalism at a time when it more than just romantic posturing would land him in bother with the authorities.And in his later poems discussing his "muses" he expresses his contempt for them preferring to conspire amongst the ignorant than show their adoration for him .

And in fact your the very first person ive ever encountered whos suggested he was a republican . Ive never in my life heard anyone put that point of view forward before .

 

[redsquirrel]

Is this US stuff like a modern day grand tour for the sons and daughters of privilege? Now we learn:



(note: not a go at this other laura, beyond being from an aristocratic/gentry family and very expensive school i know nothing of her, just noting the possibility of a common theme here)

Saw that dreadful article yesterday. The guardian music writers really are terrible first that shitty Frank Turner piece and now this.

 

[treelover]

I remember danny la rouge (I think) coming out with an anecdote about a May Day march up in Scotland a while ago, and how after that experience he declined to go on any others. A group of working class women was stood on the pavement witnessing the march, and through their mockery were defining themselves outside of what it represented, laughing among themselves and saying the marchers weren't workers but a load of hippies.
seventh bullet, Yesterday at 3:02 AM Report

I remember marching through our city to support an asylum seeker who has sown his lips together, the looks we got from the public were unbelievable, and when we got to the market end of town, where the very poor shop, it got very hostile indeed, not very relevant to the discussion, or DLR's post, but a indication of where some people are coming from

 

[treelover]

Laurie Penny persona, intentional or not, is basically the caricature of a middle-class know-it-all lefty who is contemptuous of the actual working-class. This caricature is disseminated through the right-wing media, and it has some elements of truth to it, but usually not that much - because of this dissemination this caricature has been firmly established in popular consciousness so when they are confronted by the personification of this caricature in Laurie Penny at an event, in an article or by association or whatever then whatever she is associated with immediately loses credibility and by extension so does the political left.

a proto Melanie Phillips?

 

[frogwoman]

on the other hand we got applauded on a teachers' demo last year and on the nov 30th demo in 2011

 

[treelover]

Have you changed your opinion since then, out of interest? Coz all the stuff about horizontal networks was so in vogue at the time of the student movement, and I felt myself at the time that much of it was ill thought out pseudo-anarchist platitudes, so perhaps now looking back years later at the student movement you could pick out where and how this stuff failed? What oligarchical tendencies emerged from the horizontal networks and who benefitted from them and why? Why when the horizontalist approach was applied in the various Occupy camps it failed so dismally at producing any tangible political affects, why it led to day after after of micro-politics suffocating any sort of potential, how it utterly and miserably failed to even collectively manage the camps themselves (look at the fucking horror stories about rape and sexual assault that have been a feature of Occupy type events all over the world to pick the most grotesque example of these failings) these sorts of things. Also the phrase dissent entrepeneur makes me want to gip. Any regrets about using it, or is it a label you'd be happy to use today?

I'm not having a go coz you can't have been very old when you wrote that, and there's nowt wrong with changing your mind, I'd just be interested to see whether your thoughts have changed. I reckon you might've come on here looking for a row but I'm not going to give you one coz 1) you're pretty hench 2) I reckon you're a thoughtful person who has something worthwhile to add to these debates, and it'd be a shame if you didn't at least have a go at engaging before it ends with playground squabbling.

Worked incredibly well at Climate camp, etc as far as I know, Ocuppy had to deal with an awful lot of social casualties, etc, maybe a bit more structure was needed there.

 

[Casually Red]

I remember marching through our city to support an asylum seeker who has sown his lips together, the looks we got from the public were unbelievable, and when we got to the market end of town, where the very poor shop, it got very hostile indeed, not very relevant to the discussion, or DLR's post, but a indication of where some people are coming from

on the one hand youve the struggle for scarce resources at the bottom . On the other hand youve got the immigration influx targetted most heavily at the cheapest end of the housing market were the poorest live and in the jobs which the poorest tend to do . So in many ways its their immediate environment which gets changed most and quickest , and not for the better. And of course despite the entire left taking it for granted immigration is a wonderful idea nobody bothered asking these people what they thought about it, much less consulting with them beforehand or seeking their approval for their environment to undergo such far reaching change . A lot of which hasnt been positive from their point of view .

And the experience those people almost unfailingly get from the left when they voice concerns and frustration with neo liberal immigration policy , whether to Gordon Brown or to any of the hard left groups, is either to be branded a racist or to be completely ignored bar a stock formula reply reiterating unwavering support for the immigration policies theyre fed up with .

So when an entourage of lefties and students who they dont know come into their turf taking a pro immigration stance the response they get is quite likely to be similar to the utter contempt the left have had for them and their concerns . People shouldnt be at all surprised about that . Contempt breeds contempt .

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

on the one hand youve the struggle for scarce resources at the bottom . On the other hand youve got the immigration influx targetted most heavily at the cheapest end of the housing market were the poorest live and in the jobs which the poorest tend to do . So in many ways its their immediate environment which gets changed most and quickest , and not for the better. And of course despite the entire left taking it for granted immigration is a wonderful idea nobody bothered asking these people what they thought about it, much less consulting with them beforehand or seeking their approval for their environment to undergo such far reaching change . A lot of which hasnt been positive from their point of view .

And the experience those people almost unfailingly get from the left when they voice concerns and frustration with neo liberal immigration policy , whether to Gordon Brown or to any of the hard left groups, is either to be branded a racist or to be completely ignored bar a stock formula reply reiterating unwavering support for the immigration policies theyre fed up with .

So when an entourage of lefties and students who they dont know come into their turf taking a pro immigration stance the response they get is quite likely to be similar to the utter contempt the left have had for them and their concerns . People shouldnt be at all surprised about that . Contempt breeds contempt .

Shouldn't forget that most migrants are working class too.

 

[Casually Red]

on the other hand we got applauded on a teachers' demo last year and on the nov 30th demo in 2011

which would indicate that its some but not all the issues the left campaign on which have resonance among the working class.

 

[Casually Red]

Shouldn't forget that most migrants are working class too.

righto..yeah..i plainly forgot that

 

[phildwyer]

as Idris pointed out it was simply to try and get the ride from Maude Gonne . When that didnt work he quickly lost interest in it . She later did ride him but only the once , apparently the experience put her off the notion of sex with yeats for good .

Yes. And that's before he had the operation to restore his "virility." One gets the impression that he was something of a Dirty Old Man. Indeed he writes about being such, brilliantly as always:

"How can I, that girl standing there,
My attention fix
On Roman or on Russian
Or on Spanish politics?
Yet here's a travelled man that knows
What he talks about,
And there's a politician
That has read and thought,
And maybe what they say is true
Of war and war's alarms,
But O that I were young again
And held her in my arms!"

Yeats absolutely shit himself when the 1916 uprising kicked off . He went completely silent until the coast was clear years later despite an explosion of nationalism and republicanism in its immediate aftermath. He did not want in any manner to be identified with republicanism and was most likely terrified his poetic identification with nationalism at a time when it more than just romantic posturing would land him in bother with the authorities.And in his later poems discussing his "muses" he expresses his contempt for them preferring to conspire amongst the ignorant than show their adoration for him .

With all respect, I gather that you are some distance short of being an objective source when it comes to Irish politics. I am aware of the tradition from which you speak, and I understand its beliefs and shibbolleths, but I do not share them.

And in fact your the very first person ive ever encountered whos suggested he was a republican . Ive never in my life heard anyone put that point of view forward before .

Well I assure you it is the accepted view among Yeats scholars. See for example Richard Ellman's classic biography "The Man and the Masks." I suspect that your definition of "republican" is rather exacting tbf.

 

[phildwyer]

"Mr. Osterweil, the frustrated novelist, read from Guy Debord’s “Society of the Spectacle.” Tim Barker, a junior at Columbia, awkwardly admitted that he, too, had chosen a reading from Debord. (What are the odds?)"

About 5-4.

 

[Casually Red]

[quote="phildwyer, post: 12191571, member: 14741

"Yes. And that's before he had the operation to restore his "virility." One gets the impression that he was something of a Dirty Old Man. Indeed he writes about being such, brilliantly as always:

"How can I, that girl standing there,
My attention fix
On Roman or on Russian
Or on Spanish politics?
Yet here's a travelled man that knows
What he talks about,
And there's a politician
That has read and thought,
And maybe what they say is true
Of war and war's alarms,
But O that I were young again
And held her in my arms!"

well yeah..he was trying to shag Maude Gonnes daughter by that stage, after the mother wouldnt shag him any more . Once being enough .

With all respect, I gather that you are some distance short of being an objective source when it comes to Irish politics. I am aware of the tradition from which you speak, and I understand its beliefs and shibbolleths, but I do not share them.

its not simply a tradition . Its a specific set of political beliefs and principles like any other, which arent really all that complicated. And the issue isnt whether or not you support them, or me, but whether Yeats did . And theres very little to suggest he did, and plenty of evidence in his writings that he viewed such beliefs and the people who held them with contempt . And evidence in his actions and reactions that he sought to personally distance himself from those beliefs .

Well I assure you it is the accepted view among Yeats scholars. See for example Richard Ellman's classic biography "The Man and the Masks." I suspect that your definition of "republican" is rather exacting tbf.

well hush my mouth .

My very basic definition of republicanism is simply the same set of beliefs as Yeats own contemporaries, who were certainly republicans and made very clear what they were about. And who actually formulated the republican postion . And the historical record is quite clear as soon as they attempted to actually establish an Irish republic Yeats went to ground and put as much distance between himself and their beleifs and actions as he could .
Until years later when it was safe - and profitable- to resurface and then he attempted, and largely succeeded, in writing himself into that narrative .

 

[seventh bullet]

Year Zero begins.

1792?

 

[phildwyer]

well yeah..he was trying to shag Maude Gonnes daughter by that stage, after the mother wouldnt shag him any more . Once being enough .

And she evidently told her daughter not to shag him either. But he was indefatigable. He'd have gone after her grandaughter if he'd lived long enough.

its not simply a tradition . Its a specific set of political beliefs and principles like any other, which arent really all that complicated.

That's for sure. Your politics were bred into your blood twenty generations ago, and there's nothing anyone could ever do to change them one iota. You carry from your mother's womb a fanatic heart, as a wise man once said. I learned not to argue politics with you as an 18 year-old barman in Kilburn.

My very basic definition of republicanism is simply the same set of beliefs as Yeats own contemporaries, who were certainly republicans and made very clear what they were about. And who actually formulated the republican postion .

Well it's not quite a simple as that, now is it? I bet you don't consider Michael Collins a republican either.

And the historical record is quite clear as soon as they attempted to actually establish an Irish republic Yeats went to ground and put as much distance between himself and their beleifs and actions as he could .
Until years later when it was safe - and profitable- to resurface and then he attempted, and largely succeeded, in writing himself into that narrative .

I can see why you'd say that. I see it differently. I think "Easter 1916" is an extremely apt and nuanced evaluation of radical republicanism, indeed the most mature and subtle analysis of such ever produced by an Irishman, and composed on the spot too.

 

[rioted]

on the one hand youve the struggle for scarce resources at the bottom . On the other hand youve got the immigration influx targetted most heavily at the cheapest end of the housing market were the poorest live and in the jobs which the poorest tend to do . So in many ways its their immediate environment which gets changed most and quickest , and not for the better. And of course despite the entire left taking it for granted immigration is a wonderful idea nobody bothered asking these people what they thought about it, much less consulting with them beforehand or seeking their approval for their environment to undergo such far reaching change . A lot of which hasnt been positive from their point of view .

And the experience those people almost unfailingly get from the left when they voice concerns and frustration with neo liberal immigration policy , whether to Gordon Brown or to any of the hard left groups, is either to be branded a racist or to be completely ignored bar a stock formula reply reiterating unwavering support for the immigration policies theyre fed up with .

So when an entourage of lefties and students who they dont know come into their turf taking a pro immigration stance the response they get is quite likely to be similar to the utter contempt the left have had for them and their concerns . People shouldnt be at all surprised about that . Contempt breeds contempt .

"I remember marching through our city to support an asylum seeker. One of the great strengths of the working class is solidarity. Conflating asylum seekers and an influx of immigrants underlines something deeply unpleasant.

 

[rekil]

It only takes a few posts doesn't it.

Ronaldo Bates Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability, and I want you to know that we are with you...

Chilango reacts to LLETSA'S latest ban.

Spoiler

 

[Casually Red]

[quote="phildwyer, post: 12191607, member: 14741

That's for sure. Your politics were bred into your blood twenty generations ago, and there's nothing anyone could ever do to change them one iota. You carry from your mother's womb a fanatic heart, as a wise man once said. I learned not to argue politics with you as an 18 year-old barman in Kilburn.

Im quite sure my DNA has got very little to do with my politics , and my mothers most certainly not a republican . Just as Yeats mother wasnt either . Padraig Pearses father was an englishman . Yeats wasnt all that wise,im afraid. He was just being all flouncy and poety .

Well it's not quite a simple as that, now is it? I bet you don't consider Michael Collins a republican either.

well he was . One who committed treachery certainly but for his entire political career he publicly identified himself with the republican cause . Yeats definitely didnt .

I can see why you'd say that. I see it differently. I think "Easter 1916" is an extremely apt and nuanced evaluation of radical republicanism, indeed the most mature and subtle analysis of such ever produced by an Irishman, and composed on the spot too.

Id profoundly disagree . Ive always felt it was mawkish, embarassing, sentimental and ultimately self serving nonsense that was devoid of any analysis whatsoever, bar the fact those executed were regarded as heroes. Which was stating the bleedin obvious by he time it was written . And even in it Yeats is forced to admit he frequently mocked their beliefs as opposed to sharing them.
But later tries to claim he was responsible for them . Self sering and self important . Written in an atmosphere where half the country were claiming they were in the GPO, Yeats there too..in spirit .