Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Bakunin]

Small Question:

She's thrown the insult of 'racist' at our esteemed fellow poster in entirely unambiguous terms.

She then backtracks and claims she has no idea if said poster is racist.

Which leads me to ask why if, as she now claims, she had no idea whether or not our fellow poster is a racist, did she blatantly and publicly call him one in the first place?

 

[audiotech]

...since spineygate...

 

[love detective]

It's a bit like when editor said he had no idea if lusty was a paedophile or not

 

[_angel_]

It's a bit like when editor said he had no idea if lusty was a paedophile or not

That was my first thought on reading that.
And the irony of that thread being at the top of this forum about paedo allegations and living people.

 

[cesare]

Because it's left the two people involved nursing a greivance that shouldn't have even been there in the first place. People are talking about legal action ffs, it should never have got to this point, and if Laurie Penny had acted like an adult I don't think it would have.

It's not just the two people. This all flows from an allegation about an article produced by a political party.

 

[The39thStep]

Praise_hell_seitan! @autonomistaXvX 2d
wait i just realised @PennyRed called sean birchall racist. yes sean birchall of red action/afa.

 

[editor]

That was my first thought on reading that.
And the irony of that thread being at the top of this forum about paedo allegations and living people.

That wasn't an allegation. It was a simple statement of fact. I know absolutely nothing about the sexual interests of the anonymous internet entity known as lusty or whatever his name was. More importantly, this has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, nor does it have any relation to the statement about 'paedo allegations and living people,' so I'd be obliged if this excellent thread is now not dragged off topic. Thanks.

 

[_angel_]

That wasn't an allegation. It was a simple statement of fact. I know absolutely nothing about the sexual interests of the anonymous internet entity known as lusty or whatever his name was. More importantly, this has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, nor does it have any relation to the statement about 'paedo allegations and living people,' so I'd be obliged if this excellent thread is now not dragged off topic. Thanks.

You said "you couldn't say he wasn't a paedo because you didn't know he wasn't". So it's a bit similar to the pickle LP has got herself into with Love Detective and others.

 

[redsquirrel]

She hasn't really apologised to Lovedetective, tbf.

And I'm not convinced that taking legal action will get the accusations withdrawn either.

ETA: Send her an email. If you don't get a response within 48 hours send me a PM and I'll try to take it up with a couple of people who I know that know her.

Yeah SN, I can understand why you are angry but I really don't think getting the lawyers in is going to help you. Fozzie's suggestion seems a better way - at least at first.

 

[editor]

You said "you couldn't say he wasn't a paedo because you didn't know he wasn't". So it's a bit similar to the pickle LP has got herself into with Love Detective and others.

I've no interest in pursuing this pointless, irrelevant and idiotic non-argument.

 

[radgiesteve]

That wasn't an allegation. It was a simple statement of fact. I know absolutely nothing about the sexual interests of the anonymous internet entity known as lusty or whatever his name was. More importantly, this has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, nor does it have any relation to the statement about 'paedo allegations and living people,' so I'd be obliged if this excellent thread is now not dragged off topic. Thanks.

pedantophile

 

[Firky]

Because it's left the two people involved nursing a greivance that shouldn't have even been there in the first place. People are talking about legal action ffs, it should never have got to this point, and if Laurie Penny had acted like an adult I don't think it would have.

Don't forget the IWCA.

 

[_angel_]

I've no interest in pursuing this pointless, irrelevant and idiotic non-argument.

I'm not surprised.

 

[Citizen66]

Don't turn this into a bunfight with the mods please. Wrong thread.

 

[frogwoman]

its amusing to see them make cunts out of themselves. See: Huhne and Diane Abbot. amongst many

of course they're stuck with twitter now that luke bozier has turned out to be a massive paedo

 

[sihhi]

That this is the case can be shown by the obsequious manner in which she had previously asked Kenan Malik to educate her about this persepective. It's ok for him as he's on radio 4 in the papers and is a pretty well known public intellectual. Lines drawn and participants decided.

Crucially I'd add, Kenan Malik is not the IWCA, nor is he lovedetective or spiney. Kenan Malik's mode of action is to encourage white liberals via the medium of Radio 4, his columns and books to go about the project of integration and ‘race relations’ more carefully (immigration levels don’t matter but please no burqa bans). His approach is not about cross-communal non-multiculturalist working-class self-organisation.

Sure there's an overlap in what Kenan Malik and the IWCA might be saying but Kenan's approach is different. His is about encouraging a general soft assimilationist tendency. Hence some of his most trenchant criticism is reserved for Germany:

As a consequence of multicultural policies, Turkish communities became dangerously inward-looking. Without any incentive to participate in the national community, many did not bother learning German. First generation immigrants were broadly secular, and those that were religious wore their faith lightly. Today, almost a third of adult Turks in Germany regularly attend mosque, a far higher rate than among Turkish communities elsewhere in western Europe, and higher than in most parts of Turkey. First generation women almost never wore headscarves. Many of their daughters do. Not only were Turks isolated from mainstream German society, they were also estranged from the communities from which they had originally emigrated, and from the traditional institutions of Islam. Combined with their growing religiosity and inwardness, the increasing isolation of second generation German Turks from social structures in both Germany and Turkey made some more open to radical Islamist tendencies. The recent news of German jihadis in Afghanistan was the inevitable consequence. At the same time as Germany's multicultural policies encouraged immigrants to be at best indifferent to mainstream German society, at worst openly hostile to it, they also made Germans increasingly antagonistic towards Turks. The sense of what it meant to be German was in part defined against the values and beliefs of the excluded migrant communities. And having been excluded, it has become easier to scapegoat immigrants for Germany's social ills. A recent poll showed that more than a third of Germans think that the country is "over-run by foreigners" and more than half felt that Arabs were "unpleasant".

His argument is that Germany's multicultural policies made Germans increasingly antagonistic towards Turks. It's an outright lie, from the 1950s start of the importation of Turkish migrant labour into Germany, there was antagonism, that antagonism manifested itself in those 'policies' - denial of citizenship, relegation into lowest levels of employment, last in first out policies, deportation of non-citizen Turkish trade union agitators. It's a fairytale of happy relations simply blighted by a silly government decision not to grant citizenship.

He also, in general, ignores those immigrants to Britain who did arrive as work permit workers and as non-citizens, non-British Passport holders, and had to tow the line for well over a decade to receive citizenship. They are simply written out of this account of liberal multiculturalism dominating the situation from the 1980s onward. Cypriot immigrants in from 1950s onwards they organise and group together as Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots by themselves without any influence from local councils - a legacy of colonialism. Its before 'multiculturalism' - its internal colonialism.

Germany has taken a different path to a multicultural society from a country like Britain. In Britain, immigrants arrived not as guest workers but as British subjects. They were excluded from mainstream society not by being deprived of citizenship but because of racism. The response of the British authorities to such exclusion was, however, the same as that of German authorities – the encouragement of minority groups to express their identities, explore their own histories, formulate their own values, pursue their own lifestyles."

It's utter lies - since when have British authorities encouraged Cantonese from Hong Kong, or Italians or Bengalis to explore their own histories? It's only one side of history that is very partially funded:- the slow, steady integration of immigrants - see Black History Month. Never why people are here in the first place, beyond a truism.

Malik's history of what happened with the Asian movement is also highly suspect, he blames official local council multiculturalism for its segmentation into Bengali, Urdu, Hindu and Sikh - in fact the tensions within were already there in the alliances that emerged in the 1970s as part of the IWAs, Standing Councils and others.
The splits over the Bangladesh war of liberation, Kashmir/Kargils, Emergency, huge regionalist movements in India in the late 1970s - that had a crucial impact. The IWA split over the question of whether or not Indira should be protested or welcomed in 1975, and then those splits again split in 1982 when Indira visited again after 'democratic rule' was restored in India. It came from within not from pressures of a multicultural state. Malik's argument is that the Asian movement should have moved away from political discussion of the subcontinent i.e. become more 'British' citizen and less 3rd world in their approach.

His history of 1985 also seems very romanticised: "Why did two communities that had fought side by side in 1985 fight against each other 20 years later?"
Many Asian people did see the 1985 riots as mindless violence - not as "fighting side by side", particularly when 2 Asian post office workers were killed as a result of the arson from petrol bombs thrown by (black) rioters. It's not multiculturalism from do gooder white liberal Birmingham Council post-1985 that somehow engineers the Lozells riot 20 years later. It's something to do with the solid economic base of the region changing, one section of Asians going up, and black African unemployment as a result of the decline in industrial employment in the Midlands region. I don't know what the answer is, but Kenan Malik's analysis is suspect - blame it all on multiculturalism.

Many within the Asian movement - what's left of it still true to its principles - question Kenan Malik's commitment more widely. He is not in the AYM any more and hasn't been involved in grassroots action for at least 20 years. He's a writer and academic needing to get on Radio 4. Unsurprisingly, the 'debate' as shaped by Radio 4 and Talk Sport alike, is one between Kenan Malik at one end and Iqbal Sacranie at the other. At the end of the day Kenan Malik is a liberal anti-multiculturalist, and as Arun Kundnani, someone I don't fully agree with either, explains: "Liberal anti-multiculturalism now serves, by default if not intent, to reinforce the ideological underpinnings of today’s racism and imperialism."

None of this means that Kenan Malik is a racist or shouldn't be listened to in the useful things he does say, but it does mean that the IWCA and Kenan Malik are not the same things.

 

[sihhi]

Would the IWCA coming from a strong republican tradition accept that moves towards Irish language education in Sinn Fein-controlled (whatever the disagreements about Derry are 'irrational and reactionary'

The argument for language preservation is, as I pointed out a decade ago when a similar debate arose (that time about Eyak, an Alaskan language spoken by just one person) irrational and reactionary.

'Nobody can suppose that it is not more beneficial for a Breton or a Basque to be a member of the French nationality, admitted on equal terms to all the privileges of French citizenship... than to sulk on his own rocks, without participation or interest in the general movement of the world.' So wrote John Stuart Mill more than a century ago. It would have astonished him that in the twenty-first century there are those who think that sulking on your own rock is a state worth preserving.

He is a liberal, endorsing the idea that to protect and enhance Basque speakership is effectively "irrational and reactionary". Malik's world is one where the language and the perspective of the great (capitalist) powers that can absorb and assimilate migrants (displaced by the force of capital of those great powers) do so calmly and without overreaction.
Migrants move in, on the say-so of those powers, and become full citizens of those powers, without social separation and tensions. The rich still win, but without the mess of immigrant and racial worries.

He wants a "ring-fenced public sphere" ie Britain and the Western states dealing with their immigrant uptakes from the rest of the poor world:

Political equality only becomes possible with the creation of a ring-fenced public sphere, which everyone can enter as political equals, whatever their cultural, economic or ethnic backgrounds.... Only by establishing a distinction between the public and the private can we forge a relationship between diversity and equality, allowing citizens to have full freedom to pursue their different values or practices in private,while ensuring that in the public sphere all citizens are treated as political equals whatever the differences in their private lives.

Malik never explains what the distinction actually is, but it is fairly clear that teaching Urdu, Welsh or Cornish at a young age is to be considered private,demands for state funding are to be dismissed on that basis (unspoken is that French, German, Italian, Spanish remain).
Unwittingly or knowingly, he seeks to confine 'culture' to consumption choices - various food and clothing choices - within a Western state, but to restrict state subsidy of non-mainstream cultural production.
Today, all charities providing services have to be open to all applicants, regardless of their name, so even in Bangladeshi community centres with Bengali names, there are others Somalis, Turks, Poles, benefiting from their English lessons. As much as I've seen of it, what's happened with the cuts is that minority charity grants have been cut the most (in a slow shift towards the idea of 'less multiculturalism'), whilst general charities dealing with disability (days out, respite etc) or legal advice - both English only - have not been cut, proportionately, as severely. So it is not a good time for those outside mainstream services, despite propaganda stating that the state is being drained by interpreters and translations.

My point was, and remains, that the problem of integration is not primarily one of immigration but one of social fragmentation - of the way that the universalising language of equality has been replaced by the divisive language of identity.

Malik only wants the language of equality, I don't think there is any real desire for actual equality.
Laurie Penny is turning to a fellow liberal. Engaging with a text on a website that is headed up 'independent working class association' is too much.



The point is that all demands that are not directed at the rich are illegitimateones. They result in the redistribution of resources within the working class - meaning the aggravation and splits within the working-class - it's not only cultural based ones that are the problem. All charities and requests for charities from ordinary people do this - create a world of competing identities (except most of them are not cultural). There are groups for cyclists and groups for car users and car owners, heritage sector and office development sector, natural pursuit sectors vs adventure tourism sector within National Park, hoteliers and farmers - interest groups clashing demanding the re-distribution of resources within/given to the working-class. Each attempts to ingratiate itself in a capitalist manner, by pointing out, in subtle and careful ways, the benefits that will accrue to the business class, after any such re-distribution, most often by talking of 'a national interest'. The side that loses is - unless there is a working-class struggle - is the one with least value to the business class.

The standard trade unions are not immune, their demands are still protectionist and still geared towards ensuring the triumph of British business. A recent was example was a PCS (may be even a 'left', but I am not sure) rep at Heathrow arguing for more immigration officers at Heathrow on the basis of needing to check non-EU people much more thoroughly, and providing a better, quicker passage through for inward investers (so that they didn't go to Schipol) with more staff. 'Don't cut us you rely on us for profits'. All these arguments hack away at working-class politics. Why are only cultural demands the problem?

My feeling is Britain's business class wants to use its plethora of minorities to gain advantages in business terms across the globe, the dual citizens hold the key - see what's happening in India now. Hence, stability must be assured (no major race confrontations, minor skirmishes are OK), but a British perspective and citizenship is also essential (something both liberal multiculturalism and liberal anti-multiculturalism/assimilationism can ensure).

Liberal anti-multiculturalism is also an advantage for how British populations operate across the world, we don't really see it, but there are still over 700,000 British households in Spain, hundreds of thousands of others working as 'expatriates' across the world. The public and private division underpins the British abroad - they round up properties in southern Turkey and even Black Sea Bulgaria, as long as they don't demand English schools from the state all is well. And why would they need to? They have English-medium schools in virtually every corner of the globe, failing that they have the money for private schools.

 

[frogwoman]

I could be wrong, but IIRC IWCA dont agree with everything Malik says (and would view it critically and always view it keeping in mind what his background/where he comes from, socially and politically) but just agree/sympathise with quite a lot of his thought and arguments. Could be wrong though!

 

[sihhi]

Even though I have contributed to examples of it, I don't see much use in another journalist reporting Laurie Penny's poor writing, or her dismissal of readers as racists. I think her writing style is unclear and purposefully vague to allow left audiences to draw what they seek. I do think many of the anonymous quotations are so perfect as to be suspicious. (I think the same of right-wing journalists too, see Sarah Sands editor-reporter on the Evening Standard, bumping into people in Tottenham who all wanted everyone arrested in August 2011 to be locked up for as long as possible. Sarah Sands is also private school, Kent College, and Oxbridge. She also wrote the infamous 2006 piece 'Emo Cult warning for Parents' warning that emo - emotional hardcore music - leads to suicides - "fact free assertions" on the scale of Dr Jazzz - but no outrage or calls for her to return to cub-level reporting no Sands-gate, in fact she is promoted to be editor of Evening Standard (a newspaper whose owner holidays and enjoys champagne with the mayor imposing austerity over London).

Dozens of other journalists and writers do what Laurie Penny has done, right-wing journalists simply dismiss readers as 'ideological'. In fact that's the standard response to campaign groups like MediaLens that point out to journalists and editors that the voices of ordinary people in Britain, or the victims of British policy in Yemen, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia or wherever are being overlooked.
This is not wholly a capitalist media issue. It's a left issue - a movement issue. How those who are rich can enter and piggyback on the movement for a very short time and parasite off it ever after. Or why it is that so many 'comrades' become erstwhile comrades when better positions and contracts are offered. How the whole concept of 'left' has been occupied and gentrified to a degree where questioning the family or personal finances of a spokesperson-writer is seen as 'bullying'.

Having said that, I look forward to strikes and shut-downs of the Guardian, the Independent, New Statesman as well as the right-wing press.

 

[sihhi]

I could be wrong, but IIRC IWCA dont agree with everything Malik says but just agree/sympathise with quite a lot of his thought and arguments. Could be wrong though!

Yes, so Laurie Penny should deal with ordinary leftists not media ones.

 

[Citizen66]

Is she another dwyer troll?

 

[Frances Lengel]

You said "you couldn't say he wasn't a paedo because you didn't know he wasn't". So it's a bit similar to the pickle LP has got herself into with Love Detective and others.

That's more or less what LLETSA got banned for as well - Saying he had no way of knowing if Mrs M was telling the truth or not or somesuch. This thread's not really the place for it, but fuck it can there ever really be a wrong time to shitstir?

 

[DaveCinzano]

That's more or less what LLETSA got banned for as well - Saying he had no way of knowing if Mrs M was telling the truth or not or somesuch. This thread's not really the place for it, but fuck it can there ever really be a wrong time to shitstir?

I suspect that that would depend on whether a pro- or anti-management spoon was involved.

 

[sihhi]

Related news:

Vice has just bought i-D. Shit just got real.

Vice lives on interns. I suspect the same approach will be rolled out to i-D.
A discussion on twitter (where else? ) of interns from Vice.

Ariana Mozafari ‏@ariana_mozafari
@Slandr Oh, and I am an "Un-Paid Intern Muthafucka" as well lol. You're so lucky to be working for Vice
Expand
7 DecAlekslandr ‏@Slandr
@ariana_mozafari You should apply. Theyre always looking for free labour and Im out the door end of next week too. U could be my replacement
10:05 AM - 7 Dec 12 · Details
7 DecAriana Mozafari ‏@ariana_mozafari
@Slandr and I'd LOVE TO ... but I don't live in the UK You don't even know it's like my dream to work there.
Expand
7 DecAlekslandr ‏@Slandr
@ariana_mozafari Trust me. I'm THE biggest VICE fanboy. I have no interest writing for anyone else. Dreams are made to be broken doe </3

 

[Citizen66]

This thread's not really the place for it, but fuck it can there ever really be a wrong time to shitstir?

if you don't want a useful thread to be closed and thus the topic lose momentum then yeah.

 

[cesare]

I've just asked David Allen Green if the views/allegations of NS contributing editors, are those of the NS too. There's no disclaimer on her twitter profile.

 

[sihhi]

I'm confused do ld and spiney want there to be threats of litigation?

 

[butchersapron]

I've just asked David Allen Green if the views/allegations of NS contributing editors, are those of the NS too. There's no disclaimer on her twitter profile.

He's a lib-dem member btw - joined after the coalition was formed.

 

[Citizen66]

He's a lib-dem member btw - joined after the coalition was formed.

From where? (politically, not geographically)

 

[cesare]

I'm confused do ld and spiney want there to be threats of litigation?

There's no mention of litigation in what I asked him. I asked a general question, which, if he notices it, may result in him "taking note" as they say.