Also got a Che flag!All 5x3! Hoooj!
Che was abit of a dick in real life....didn't you know?
‘March for the Alternative’ - 26th March - London
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Che was abit of a dick in real life....didn't you know?
Will2403
Active Member
BORING!
Will2403
Active Member
shush! he was amazing!
look at this smile! for someone who killed a lot of people, he looks so loveable!
shush! he was amazing!
look at this smile! for someone who killed a lot of people, he looks so loveable!
http://libcom.org/history/articles/1928-1967-ernesto-che-guevara
Lovely man.
Will2403
Active Member
thats one take on events, any of those accusations been proven or corroborated?
i don't know the facts, but he seemed to fight for democracy and civil rights afaik, he may have taken things way too far and he may well have been an arrogant, stubborn arsehole, but he still fought for the right side and that'll do me.
he may well have done terrible things, but maybe we shouldn't judge as we can't walk in his shoes, to lead a bloody rebellion, having to kill or be killed will change a man, the situation those people were in may have led them to carry out unjust acts, you could attribute it to some kind of temporary psychological trauma or maybe they were terrible people, we'll never know.
i don't know the facts, but he seemed to fight for democracy and civil rights afaik, he may have taken things way too far and he may well have been an arrogant, stubborn arsehole, but he still fought for the right side and that'll do me.
he may well have done terrible things, but maybe we shouldn't judge as we can't walk in his shoes, to lead a bloody rebellion, having to kill or be killed will change a man, the situation those people were in may have led them to carry out unjust acts, you could attribute it to some kind of temporary psychological trauma or maybe they were terrible people, we'll never know.
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
Locking up left-wing dissidents is not exactly out of character for Leninists, is it?
Will2403
Active Member
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00zp2h0/Our_World_Cuba_at_the_Crossroads/
Good little news doc about Cuba undergoing change, many licences being granted for small businesses and looking towards the possible conclusion of the Castro era.
Good little news doc about Cuba undergoing change, many licences being granted for small businesses and looking towards the possible conclusion of the Castro era.
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
joined the armchair army group. If I were in the UK, I'd definitely go. A huge march is certainly going to make a big statement in terms of mass opposition to the cuts, and help legitimise and encourage what people do locally, and any subsequent direct action against the cuts too. Bigger the better, even if it does turn into another conventional A to B march
Will2403
Active Member
I guess not.
If he did those things, then I agree with your views. He would have made some serious and unforgiveable errors of judgement.
I need more proof though.
What is your overall view of him?
Will2403
Active Member
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! waste of fucking time that.
my plan is a tent city outside the bank of england til we all get shot!
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
Well, sticking to what are incontrovertible facts.
He did run La Habana prison.
Human rights abuses (including summary executions) did take place there during that time.
Left-wing dissidents were arrested, and were sent there.
Draw your own conclusions. Mine are that he was a fairly orthodox 3rd International capital-c Communist, and that all of the above is fairly run-of-the-mill for such people.
Lo Siento.
Second As Farce
Go for it.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
The organised working class had no role in the Cuban revolution. Consequently, power never passed into the hands of the working class but to a new ruling bureaucracy. It was Stalinist in practise - nationalisations and a planned economy but without accountability to the working class, and repression of critics from the left who, whilst defending the gains made, called for a further revolution to put power into the hands of the Cuban working class. That isn't to dismiss the gains made for the working class in Cuba but neither does it make the Cuban bureaucracy a working class government and it certainly wasn't/isn't socialism. Guevara acknowledged himself that the 26th July Movement and the bureaucracy it created contained many bourgeois elements, yet condemned those calling for a genuine workers' government and/or a w/c revolution. He was a guerrilla, an elitist, who believed cadre could transform society in place of the working class, not that the role of cadre is to provide direction to the working class, engaged in class struggle or carrying through a revolution (which incidentally is where the usual and horrifically simple anarchist critique of vanguardism falls down, by assuming vangaurdism equals the former).
I don't know why some of the critics of Che focus on the killing and slaying and blood in an abstract sense - he killed people therefore must have been a monster. Which is liberal bollocks. Overthrowing a ruling class is inevitably going to involve a wee bit of blood-letting. It wasn't that he killed, or ordered others to kill. It was that he regarded many working class militants as no different to the defenders of Batista and capitalism, as the enemies of the Cuban revolution. His long-held position of placing his revolutionary elite in the role of the working class in practise. It was who he repressed and why he repressed them, not that repression took place.
The repressive, bureaucratic and unaccountable nature of the Cuban government - or regime, or new ruling class - was not a later degeneration, it was the inevitable result of the approach and analysis of the 26th July Movement.
I'm v hungover so this is a bit clumsily expressed but you get my points hopefully.
And I do own a very nice Che ashtray somebody got me from Cuba. It's ace.
I don't know why some of the critics of Che focus on the killing and slaying and blood in an abstract sense - he killed people therefore must have been a monster. Which is liberal bollocks. Overthrowing a ruling class is inevitably going to involve a wee bit of blood-letting. It wasn't that he killed, or ordered others to kill. It was that he regarded many working class militants as no different to the defenders of Batista and capitalism, as the enemies of the Cuban revolution. His long-held position of placing his revolutionary elite in the role of the working class in practise. It was who he repressed and why he repressed them, not that repression took place.
The repressive, bureaucratic and unaccountable nature of the Cuban government - or regime, or new ruling class - was not a later degeneration, it was the inevitable result of the approach and analysis of the 26th July Movement.
I'm v hungover so this is a bit clumsily expressed but you get my points hopefully.
And I do own a very nice Che ashtray somebody got me from Cuba. It's ace.
Yet you still have the ashtray.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Yep. Sometimes I drink coca-cola too.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
I've got Sky.
Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
I use multi-nationals all the time, and laugh like fuck while I'm doing it. So what?
Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
You get it free, though, cos you is a poor.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Let the people know I died with revolution on my lips. And don't tell them about the crying and the shit in my pants.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
I wouldn't actually bother if it was just me, because it is shit and expensive, but shared house innit. Included in the rent.
Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
When I split up with Mrs. S☼I #1 I moved into a studio flat at the top of a 3 story house next to a park, and the rent was £100 a week which included gas, leccy and council tax. Was taking home £250 a week. Brilliant deal. And I was fucking laid off 6 weeks later.
Will2403
Active Member
cracking post PT 
i learnt a lot from it including two words (cadre and vanguardism - actually i'd learnt vanguardism before, but then forgot it, i'll forget both again i expect, don't think i'll be finding many conversations to squeeze them into
)
so to summarise, che was going in the right direction, but his mentality towards the w/c was fundamentally flawed, in thinking them not capable enough to help themselves and the country, which was possibly a large part of the failure of cuba as a decent left wing system. along with the castro's having the same mindset.
for fellow dumbasses:
Vanguardism is a strategy whereby an organization attempts to place itself at the center of the movement, and steer it in a direction consistent with its ideology.
Cadre principally refers to committed people within an organization that form, or have the capacity to form, the backbone of that organization
in conclusion i prefer mark steel's version of history mixed in with a bit of PT's (if u wanna be all gloomy about our hero)
anyhoo, enough about che, these protest shenanigans... anyone wanna pitch up some tents with me in the middle of a busy london street? can you get underlay for tents? hehehe, we could get a chant going of underlay underlay arriba arriba and try and channel the spirit of che!
i learnt a lot from it including two words (cadre and vanguardism - actually i'd learnt vanguardism before, but then forgot it, i'll forget both again i expect, don't think i'll be finding many conversations to squeeze them into
)so to summarise, che was going in the right direction, but his mentality towards the w/c was fundamentally flawed, in thinking them not capable enough to help themselves and the country, which was possibly a large part of the failure of cuba as a decent left wing system. along with the castro's having the same mindset.
for fellow dumbasses:
Vanguardism is a strategy whereby an organization attempts to place itself at the center of the movement, and steer it in a direction consistent with its ideology.
Cadre principally refers to committed people within an organization that form, or have the capacity to form, the backbone of that organization
in conclusion i prefer mark steel's version of history mixed in with a bit of PT's (if u wanna be all gloomy about our hero)
anyhoo, enough about che, these protest shenanigans... anyone wanna pitch up some tents with me in the middle of a busy london street? can you get underlay for tents?
hehehe, we could get a chant going of underlay underlay arriba arriba and try and channel the spirit of che!
Will2403
Active Member
http://www.liveonlinefooty.com/
i steal premier league and champions league football!
w00t!had starview and the box as well. totally 1337 as far as robbin from the murdoch's goes...
My point is you purposely bought an ashtray with the image of a twat on it(and you know he has locked up lots of working class militants). I buy coca-cola etc as well. But I don't go out my way to buy ashtrays with joe stalin or hitler on them, you get my point. And yes I did just say hitler =p
cracking post PT
i learnt a lot from it including two words (cadre and vanguardism - actually i'd learnt vanguardism before, but then forgot it, i'll forget both again i expect, don't think i'll be finding many conversations to squeeze them into
so to summarise, che was going in the right direction, but his mentality towards the w/c was fundamentally flawed, in thinking them not capable enough to help themselves and the country, which was possibly a large part of the failure of cuba as a decent left wing system. along with the castro's having the same mindset.
for fellow dumbasses:
Vanguardism is a strategy whereby an organization attempts to place itself at the center of the movement, and steer it in a direction consistent with its ideology.
Cadre principally refers to committed people within an organization that form, or have the capacity to form, the backbone of that organization
in conclusion i prefer mark steel's version of history mixed in with a bit of PT's (if u wanna be all gloomy about our hero)
anyhoo, enough about che, these protest shenanigans... anyone wanna pitch up some tents with me in the middle of a busy london street? can you get underlay for tents?
Are you still gonna be waving his flag after all the shit you have heard about your 'hero'?
Proper Tidy
Arsed
I didn't. You may have missed it when I said it was a present. I've never been to Cuba, although I would like to. If I ever do, I'm sure I'll buy some Che tat.
My view of Che is a bit more nuanced than twat/not-twat to be honest. I'd have hoped to have got that across already.
I would defo buy a genuine Nazi ashtray though. It is, after all, an ashtray, not a declaration of support and solidarity.
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