Will the election result finally result in ditching "First Past The Post?"

[andysays]

Just a reminder everybody, there are 4 Gaza independence plus Jeremy Corbyn that's just as many MPS as ReformUK has.

One consequence of a switch from FPTP to some form of PR would be that independents like these would find it almost impossible to get elected.

Like more or less everyone else on the thread, I can see the arguments for a switch, but I can't see a change being introduced by a government which has just won a huge majority of seats with barely a third of votes cast.

 

[Serge Forward]

Not really Serge, because if someone says they are a vegetarian there is an action connected to it IE they don't eat any meat, they say they are vegan there's a action connected to it IE they don't eat any food products from animal sources eggs milk et cetera, if someone said they were a Muslim, there's actions connected with it, you go to mosque on Friday and you pray in a certain ritualised manner to Mecca and probably loads of other things, the same if you are a Catholic, you go to Mass you pray and do whatever Catholics do, send your children to Catholic school, if you say you are a anarchist what exactly do you do that is different in your lifestyle to anybody else?

Anarchism is not a lifestyle, you fucking balloon. It's a social, political and economic philosophy.

 

[Hotel Chocolate]

Who decides who is an expert? Who decides which experts?

Successful people in their fields, experts in their fields. people who have done things and achieve things in life, not people who have spent their whole life in politics from their teenage years at University all the way to their retirement.

 

[skyscraper101]

Successful people in their fields, experts in their fields. people who have done things and achieve things in life, not people who have spent their whole life in politics from their teenage years at University all the way to their retirement.

Someone like, say, Sir Kier Starmer.

 

[Hotel Chocolate]

One consequence of a switch from FPTP to some form of PR would be that independents like these would find it almost impossible to get elected.

Like more or less everyone else on the thread, I can see the arguments for a switch, but I can't see a change being introduced by a government which has just won a huge majority of seats with barely a third of votes cast.

I would have thought that an independent candidate would be more likely to be elected under PR. There are unique circumstances that got those five chaps elected, (I am including Jeremy Corbyn).

 

[emanymton]

Anarchism is not a lifestyle, you fucking balloon. It's a social, political and economic philosophy.

And besides everyone knows being an anarchists means you need to ride a unicycle and juggle at the weekends.

Oh and avoid soap.

 

[Hotel Chocolate]

Someone like, say, Sir Kier Starmer.

He is successful whether you like him or not, but I would think more in terms of people like Professor Alexis Jay. The House of Lords doesn't have much powers, it's just a revising chamber, it's good to have some large text of new law gone through by experts in minute detail.

 

[moochedit]

FWIW, the only party you didn't mention, the Tories, are the ones who benefitted most from FPTP this election as well as every other.

Actually unusally tories did worse under fptp in this election although historically they have been the party that most benefitted from it.

 

[emanymton]

Successful people in their fields, experts in their fields. people who have done things and achieve things in life, not people who have spent their whole life in politics from their teenage years at University all the way to their reretirement.

Well that clears things up and isn't vague at all.

 

[andysays]

I would have thought that independent candidate would more likely be elected under PR. There are unique circumstances that got those five chaps elected, (I am including Jeremy Corbyn).

It's possible that Corbyn might have won 1/650th of the total votes cast across the country had all voters been able to vote for him as an individual, but none of the others would.

 

[Hotel Chocolate]

Well that clears things up and isn't vague at all.

I refer you to my answer earlier.

 

[Hotel Chocolate]

It's possible that Corbyn might have won 1/650th of the total votes cast across the country had all voters been able to vote for him as an individual, but none of the others would.

Using the Irish system I don't see why the Gaza independents would not have got elected in their individual constituencies or they could have won one percent of the whole country vote as members of a political party, which I think is the Dutch system. In the case of Jeremy Corbyn just vote for him in first choice in that constituency. Jeremy Corbyn was very popular across the whole of the country.

 

[danny la rouge]

He is successful whether you like him or not

<brain: “don’t say ‘so was Hitler’. Don’t say ‘so was Hitler’”. /brain>

So was Hitler.

<brain: doh! /brain>

 

[Hotel Chocolate]

Did Hitler have any achievements apart from being a big mouth in charge of a political party? Was he an expert at anything?

 

[danny la rouge]

Did Hitler have any achievements apart from being a big mouth in charge of a political party? Was he an expert at anything?

Getting served at beer halls? Burning reichstags?

 

[JimW]

Did Hitler have any achievements apart from being a big mouth in charge of a political party? Was he an expert at anything?

Won medals in the Great War

 

[Kaka Tim]

Labour wont switch to PR of its own volition. One possible scenario is that the next election ends in a hung parliament and labour go into colation with greens and lib dems with a referendum on PR being part of the deal (which is what brown offered to clegg in 2010). So its possible but three things have to happen - hung parliament - PR referendum as part of a coalition deal - PR winning the referendum.

 

[moochedit]

Getting served at beer halls? Burning reichstags?

Wrote a book

 

[Pickman's model]

Did Hitler have any achievements apart from being a big mouth in charge of a political party? Was he an expert at anything?

you haven't heard of the second world war i see

 

[rasputin]

the party that's won under FPTP isn't going to want to get rid of it.

I obviously didn't make myself clear. Which I accept is my fault.

I totally agree that Labour is not in the slightest little bit interested in putting voting reform on their agenda. But the key point I made (I thought) was this:

Under FPTP, if things don't go Labour's way in government, the volatility of the electorate could easily swing the other way and propel an even more extreme right wing government into power next time.

So, here's the scenario. It's 2028. There needs to be an election in less than a year's time. Labour has had a bad time in government and either Reform or the Tories are 20 points ahead in the polls.

Will Labour sit still and let it happen? Or will they start looking at voting reform to keep the far right at pay? I think that's a reasonable question.

 

[moochedit]

Labour wont switch to PR of its own volition. One possible scenario is that the next election ends in a hung parliament and labour go into colation with greens and lib dems with a referendum on PR being part of the deal (which is what brown offered to clegg in 2010). So its possible but three things have to happen - hung parliament - PR referendum as part of a coalition deal - PR winning the referendum.

Didn't work that way in 2010.

Could just as easily be a tory/reform coalition deal ( not )

 

[hitmouse]

Did Hitler have any achievements apart from being a big mouth in charge of a political party? Was he an expert at anything?

(impressed by how quickly this has gone from a PR thread to a "lesser-known achievements of Hitler" thread)

 

[DotCommunist]

If you would care to respond to what I actually said, rather than your misinterpretation of it, I'll be happy to engage with you.

sorry, I didn't mean to paraphrase in a mocking manner or disparage yourself, it was just my immediate response. Is this the time? No. Its never the time when the system has just handed capital A or B a giant win and you are one of the two main beneficiaries of this system. I seem to remember being surprised at how UKIP, at its height with a lot of numbers couldn't turn those into more seats. But thats the way it works and as much as I would like it otherwise, niether of the big two are going to fuck too much with a system that consistently rewards them and marginalises actual democratic input.

 

[Hotel Chocolate]

Won medals in the Great War

He was a medal-chaser, not a hero. He suffered from narcissistic personality disorder, he lived in a fantasy world where he was a great man, a hero.

 

[moochedit]

Will Labour sit still and let it happen? Or will they start looking at voting reform to keep the far right at pay? I think that's a reasonable question.

Yes they will let it happen. They don't think ahead of the current parliament and too many in labour just want their faction in charge. They don't want to share power internally never mind with other parties in parliament.

 

[Hotel Chocolate]

A survey from 2021. I don't know if support for PR has gone up or down since then.


YouGov have done a poll as well:

Should we change our current British voting system?

Some people support a change in the British voting system to proportional representation, where the number of MPs a party wins more closely reflects the share of the vote they receive. Other people support retaining our present voting system, First Past the Post, which is more likely to give one...

yougov.co.uk

 

[danny la rouge]

He was a medal-chaser, not a hero. He suffered from narcissistic personality disorder, he lived in a fantasy world where he was a great man, a hero.

So is Starmer.

<brain: What have I told you? </brain>

 

[Sue]

40% of the population are not anarchists, anarchist probably make up less than 0.04% of the population it's an affectation. More typical of the non-voter is my next door neighbour, who I think he has never voted in his 51 years of life, he has no interest whatsoever in politics, doesn't understand it, he's only interested in football and smoking dope.

I'm not an anarchist. I am interested in politics and I didn't vote. (I'm not interested in football or in smoking dope fwiw.)

 

[danny la rouge]

A survey from 2021. I don't know if support for PR has gone up or down since then.

View attachment 432519

What’s their second choice, though?

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

I would make it into a House of Experts.

AKA House of self appointed know it alls who couldn't hack it in the world of real politics.