Why do you want to shut down McDonalds?

[vimto]

This is for the demented Thatcher and Co.

Style Council.

THE LODGER'S (or SHE WAS ONLY A SHOPKEEPER'S DAUGHTER)

No peace for the wicked - only war on the poor
They're batting on pickets - trying to even the score
It's all inclusive - the dirt comes free
And you can be all that you want to be
Oh an equal chance and an equal pay
But equally there's no equal pay
There's room on top - if you tow the line
And if you believe all this you must be out of your mind

There's only room for those the same
Those who play the leeches game
Don't get settled in this place
The lodger's terms are in disgrace

Getcha brains blown out - in a captain's mess
Stand for the Queen if you can stand the test
It's all thrown in and the lies come free
And you can be all that they want you to be

Oh if you work hard you can be the boss
But if you don't work at all then that's nobody's loss
There's room on top - if you dig in low
And the idea is what they reap you sow

With an old school tie and a reference
You can cover up crimes in their defence
It's all thrown in and the lies come free
And you can be all that they want you to be.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

These may or may not work. This is where the festival is held, it's a lake in the middle of town (East end, actually), called Trout Lake:

South

North

West

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

There is a link: no McD food was eaten at these events.

 

[editor]

JC said: You see no McD garbage near a McD

Just for the record, I see tons of McShite packaging all over the streets of London, and can GUARANTEE that there'll be upwards of 50 items of their non-biodegradeable shite within a 500 yard radius of my tower block at any given time.

There's a long history of littering fuckwits using the petrol station outside my house and throwing out their superluous McShite packaging out of their stinking cars, along with any other trash they've acquired.

In my world, companies would be directly responsible for the trash nuisance and harm to the environment they cause and (adjusts fascist peaked cap) people who think the street is one big litter bin would face enormous fines: and that would include smokers who scatter the street with fag packets, cellophane packaging and butts.

 

[nanoespresso]

We seem to have accomplished very little here.

JC has presented an admirable voice of reason, it is a shame peeps does not even attempt to retort his arguments.

Look, I fully appreciate the ‘symbolic’ value of McDs, but a symbol of what?

Capitalism or America?

Of course many will suggest both are the same.

But if you are truly looking for a symbol of capitalism to burn, why not the ultimate symbol? Go to your nearest speaker’s corner, and gather a crowd. Then ceremoniously open your wallet, and burn all of the pound notes you own. Think of the Symbolism!

No?

Why not?

Oh I forgot, smashing a McDs costs you nothing. After all, a nameless corporation with deep pockets can easily pay for repairs. And if not, well there will always be a BK ready and waiting to take its place.

I have no wish to defend McDs, this is not my goal. They have more then enough lawyers to do that for themselves. My angst is the utter stupidity, and uselessness of the anti-McDs campaign. Why?

What are your goals?

To prevent litter? Fine, than fight to change the law on packaging, and increase fines for those individuals who do litter. After all, as mentioned previously McDs is not the only source of waste, so why focus on a small portion when you can go after all sources?

To improve health? Fine, than focus on smoking, physical education for children, and all greasy food restaurants from McDs, to BK, to your neighborhood pub selling deep fried fish and Guinness.

To improve worker’s rights? Fine, than fight for across the board rules. After all, if you just force McDs to raise salaries and higher unionized workers, then the small independent restaurants and the BKs will have a competitive advantage with cheap, non-unionized workers, and will gain market share with cheaper burgers. ( Don’t you guys use this argument all the time concerning international trade, and exporting of jobs to poorer countries? Consistency people! )

If wish to destroy McDs, but none of your goals are accomplished in doing so, then I can only assume that in fact your only true goal is destroy McDs simply for personal pleasure.

Which of course makes you a moronic, violent, twat.

 

[freethepeeps]

nanoespresso - babykiller!

Firstly nano

We don't have pound notes! Secondly I don't intend to commit suicide, I intend to hang around and push against the iniquity and evil that is capitalism, and more and more are inclined to help with the pushing!

I checked the figures. There are 1200 McD. in the UK. with a population of 59 million.

Canada has just under 1200, with a pop. just under 30 million.

Do you think there might be a link between Canadian inertia and UK antagonism to McShite?

People on the tube said; McD is the worst company? I'm glad to see you get your info from institutions of higher knowledge.

Is that what you mean by "the admirable voice of reason?" The fact that he dismisses the consumer? The fact that he thinks I should rely on the institutions that are increasingly having to rely on corporations for their sponsorship? The fact that he contradicts himself, resorts to posting silly verses and pictures that are irrelevant to the thread? Have you read the thread nanoespresso? Have you been to all the links?

Oh I forgot, smashing a McDs costs you nothing. After all, a nameless corporation with deep pockets can easily pay for repairs. And if not, well there will always be a BK ready and waiting to take its place.

Now show me the post where I say that I have smashed a McShite!!

And nanoespresso, I still hold you personally responsible for the death of every Afghani baby and child that died as a result of US bombings!

 

[rasrave]

Bloody hell, freethepeeps...settle down will ya

 

[Trotboy]

Johnny Canuck

So because I hate McDonalds, I'm racist? Er, I don't think so, our comrades in the USA also hate McDonalds, as do our comrades in France, in case you hadn't noticed. Diversity is only 'alive and well' (And I wouldn't say 'well' I'd say 'back from the brink') because paople like us have fought against the poison of globalisation. Besides which, whilst McDonalds is a primarily US owned multinational, it is a franchise operation, all UK outlets are run by people resident in the UK.

If you think there's nothing wrong with McDonalds, you might like to LOOK at the shit they serve sometime, and compare it to a REAL Beefburger. I like burgers, though I'm not a big fan of beef, I like to make my own burgers, and I can tell you now they look nothing like the shite they serve at McDonalds.

The food that is sold at these establishments, and KFC, Burger King, Subway and most of the rest is the same. It is HIGHLY PROCESSED, much of it has been in cold storage for MONTHS if not YEARS, it has a hugely high REFINED SUGAR CONTENT and pretty much everything in it is rubbish, you might as well stripe up some cardboard, deep fry it, sprinkle some sugar on top, and wave a potato at it, as eat their 'fries' you'd get the same nutritional value and taste. (Incidentally the issue about the beef 'flavour' was that it was animal derived, yet their 'fries' were sold as 'suitable for vegetarians' - hardly fits trades descriptions!)

All of this leads to higher cholesterol levels, greater heart disease, increased obesity, diabetes in children and young adults, cancers and many other illnesses. All of which puts an ever increasing burden on our already overstretched Healthcare service. Not to mention killing people.

The mass production, factory farming, and ludicrous distribution that all this 'stuff' (I won't call it 'food') encourages is destroying our farming, our landscape, and the traditional regional diversity in foodstuffs and produce. It's driving down prices, sure, but at the expense of workers in every part of the chain, as well as the environment and society.

Another major issue is the massive amount of packaging involved in McDonalds. I get Fish & Chips, eat them, throw away some paper. I go to my local cafe, get a good meal in minutes, sit down, no huge queue like at McD's, I eat it off a plate, with a knife and fork, I leave. No waste, no packaging, no garbage. McDonalds I have a plastic tray full of plastic, cardboard, tissue paper, etc to cram into an overflowing garbage point when I leave, and I don't even get any cutlery!

This isn't rocket science, if you want to know more read 'The world is not for sale' By Francois Dufors and Jose Bove, two of the leading French farmers who've been active in the movement against agri-biz in France, including the drive against McDonalds and others.

Steve Bush,
Lambeth Socialist Party.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I left my house just now to buy my organically produced fairtrade tobacco, and what was the first thing I saw when I got back? A McD*nalds carton sitting on the doorstep.

What's bizarre is that the nearest McDs is miles away. Somebody is taking the piss.

 

[Spud Murphy III]

Nano:

I can see the reasoning behind your points. It is a little bit fetishistic for people to concentrate on McDonald's so extensively. As others have said though, this is probably because of their very high visibility.

I would like to make my point by way of comparison. I'll compare McDonald's with my local cafe, which is run by a Turkish Cypriot family. I could pick Burger King or Wendy or any of the dismal fried chicken chains that have sprouted up all over South London - but I'll pick McDonald's because they are allegedly the cheapest option.

McDONALD'S, Anywhere

Food: Big Mac Meal. Consists of burger, small portion of fries, medium Cola.

Cost: £3.19

Quality: Cooked food is lukewarm. Burger haphazardly assembled, with limp lettuce and miniscule cubes of onion. Fries OK but portion is very small. Cola container about half-filled with ice. Slight queasy feeling approx 10 minutes after eating.

Serving time: immediate to 5 minutes.

Physical surroundings: Generally clean, though some table tops messy. Very brightly lit. Seating is uncomfortable. Bland decor, indistinguishable from other branches.

Human contact: virtually none. Staff speak briefly and according to a script. Little or no eye contact. Most diners either sit alone or in small family groups. There is no interaction between strangers.


CENTRAL CAFE, Brockley, South London

Food: All-day breakfast consisting of sausage, fried egg, baked beans, and bubble & squeak (an English potato-based concoction). Mug of tea or can of Coke.

Cost: £2.80 (optional tip).

Quality: low-grade catering sausage, bubble & squeak home-made. Everything hot. Portions are fairly large. Tea comes in a large mug, and is quite good. Faintly bloated feeling approx 10 minutes after eating.

Serving time: 5 to 8 minutes.

Surroundings: Very clean, somewhat spartan. One section of wall has poster of a Turkish football team, plus postcards sent in by friends and diners. Tabloid newspapers left lying around for diners to read.

Human contact: Friendly greeting from staff, some of whom know my first name. I know the names of two of them. On nodding acquaintance with some other diners who I see regularly. Occasional exchange of humorous comments and other banter between strangers.

You will that McDonald's does not come out well from this comparison. Neither would Burger King, or any of the chicken shacks. I am not saying that *all* small family-run cafes are good - quite a few are not - but I believe the Central Cafe to be fairly representative of its kind.

There would be little issue for me if the fast food chains and the little cafes could peacefully exist, with diners making their choice on a 'level playing field' of a free market. But no such situation exists. The little cafes face problems from two angles:

1. The fast food chains have access to enormous amounts of capital for securing premises and for advertising, with which small concerns simply cannot compete.

2. Large business premises landlords in London know that they can inflate the value of their portfolios by up to £20 million a time by having a fast food chain occupy one of their properties - a property which has often previously housed a small family-run cafe who either do not get their lease renewed or who cannot face massive rent increases.

Of course, if you are from an area which is already highly homogenised in the choice of eating and other retail outlets, then you are probably wondering what all the fuss is about.

But that may be because you don't know what you've lost. For an idea, take a look at the http://www.classiccafes.co.uk website. Here's a picture from the site, of the beautiful Pellici cafe in London's East End, recently refurbished after fire damage.

 

[nanoespresso]

spud,

your restaurant reminds me of this little sushi place I visit often for dinner. It looks great. In my mind, McDs doesn't even come close. It makes you wonder why anyone would eat at McDs doesn't it?

ever ask them?

They have their reasons.

If that's what they chose, let them.

Until the day comes where everyone on this planet is willing to eat nothing but McDs for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, everyday of the week, am I confident, that your restaurant, and my sushi place, will always have a loyal following.

And peeps,

Babykiller?

Clearly you have a surplus of irrational rage burning inside of you. Instead of using this thread as an outlet ( and in doing so seriously damaging your reputation as an intelligent contributor ), why no go for long run or bike ride.

the fresh air does wonders.

 

[Kaka Tim]

nano -

as far as I can see its YOU who seem to be obsessed with Mc Donalds.
Everyone seems to be in agreement that
a. their ethically dodgey, environmentally dodgey and symbolic of corporate capitalism.
b. there are many many other companies, corps who are as bad if not far worse.
c. not one person here is advocating trashing mc.d's (mainly for tactical reasons rather than having an ideological problem with it).
d. there are far more important and effective targets and tactics for protest and/or direct action.

You seem to be desperate to have an argument with committed anti-big mac anarchist vandals but do not apear to have noticed that there aren't any here.

sorry

 

[freethepeeps]

Nano

I am absolutely bored with you and JC defending McShite to the hilt.

McShite attempted to defend themselves against protestors by launching a libel suit against leafletters outside one of their stores. They figured that they could bully dissenters into silence. Only they were wrong. They ended up spending millions on the longest,worst public relations exercise ever! The claims on the leaflet, which are similar claims to the ones presented here, were argued out in a British Court and McShite lost the case!!!

Now, British Judges are a bunch of conservative, establishment fuckers, and they seemed able to accept the validity of the claims.So where does that put you and JC?

JC spends his life attacking the ideals and ideas of people on these boards. He will argue anything that he thinks will win him the argument. Maybe that is his legal training, whatever. I am not particularly interested in people who are into headfucks. It bores me. As it goes, I am not feeling 100% well this weekend, and my tolerance level is lower than usual. But my problem with Canuck is a real one. He has contempt for the passion that is expressed on these boards, and I have no time for his smarmy, lawyer think shite.

As for you, I have seen you holding posters responsible for property damage that they have not committed. I have seen you push people to defend actions that are not theirs. I want to make this clear - I have committed no property damage and no violence. No other poster here has said that they have committed property damage AFAIK.The fact that we understand why it happens and refuse to condemn it, does not make us responsible for it. It would happen regardless of what you or we think.

And that is what the "babykiller" remark was intended to highlight. You support the war.By your own logic that makes you responsible for all those deaths.

I am not interested in what you think of me, or my level of intelligence.

Feel free to go fuck yourself.

 

[bruise]

Go FreeThePeepS!!

(Sorry, nothing constructive to add to the discussion which became boring a while ago! )

 

[nanoespresso]

Scheidler from the Pro-Life Action Network on attacks on abortion clinics:

In giving Father Markley the Protector Award, we neither condone nor condemn the specific instance of his attack against an abortion machine. We honor him because of his strong convictions about the sanctity of life in the womb and his willingness to sacrifice comfort for Jesus' sake. As a man of strong faith, Father can serve as a model to all true Right-to-Life activists.

Flip Benham, director of Operation Rescue:

"We deplore this kind of activity. Every time it happens they pass new laws like FACE (Freedom to Access Clinic Entrances), so gentle Christians can't even live out their faith in the streets without being felons."

Peeps:

I want to make this clear - I have committed no property damage and no violence. No other poster here has said that they have committed property damage AFAIK.The fact that we understand why it happens and refuse to condemn it, does not make us responsible for it. It would happen regardless of what you or we think

sorry you are not feeling to good peeps, as I stated previously, some fresh air will do wonders to calm the nerves.

hope you feel better,
love n' hugs.

 

[freethepeeps]

nano

They are quite right to deplore the attacks on abortion clinics! I too deplore them. I have told you why.

I am not going to condemn anyone whose anger leads them to break a McShite window. I have told you why.

Would you like an opportunity to condemn the slaughter of Afghani babies? How about Irqi babies? Somali babies?

As for your pro-lifers - why aren't they out there protesting against the killing of Afghani, Iraqi and Somali babies?

Or are they just interested in forcing women to have babies against their will?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

There's an easy counter to that sort of comparison (quite apart from the fact that, as far as I know, nobody has been killed in any McDonalds attacks). Opposing abortion is morally wrong. Opposing what McDonalds represents is not morally wrong.

I do not support the general right of people to smash up whatever they feel like, because that doesn't help a society to operate, rule utilitarianism, and I would discourage someone from engaging in that sort of action against McDonalds for a number of reasons that have already been expressed. Schielder from the PLAN is not responsible for whatever it was that Father Markley did, but he may be guilty of encouraging it. If, by being opposed to the system represented by McDonalds, I am also guilty of encouraging the destruction of their property, I can live with that.

 

[freethepeeps]

Are you a pro-lifer nano?

Well, are you?

Why have you brought the pro-life / christian fascist argument onto two threads?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Happy saturday to all the merry posters of this thread!

Sorry to hear you aren't feeling well, FTP. I apologize for the 'bollocks' comment of yesterday, you were just getting in my face so much........

The flu would explain it.

What I can't find an explanation for, is the level of emotion on this thread.

I'm getting the same kind of feedback that was forthcoming back in the weeks after Sept. 11.

FTP, I' m not interested in headfucking you or anyone. Believe it or not, I tend to write things here that are my actual opinions.

Why would I be bothered to do anything else?

I'm sorry if you see my opinions as some kind of attack on the beliefs and passions of the posters. Sure I disagree on some things.

If you don't want debate or disagreement, don't post on a public forum. And if your beliefs won't stand the test of debate, that isn't my fault.

I'm here to talk about things. I'm sorry if you were looking for 'me too' posts; you won''t get them from me.

As for superfluous pictures, yes, I did. It seemed to me the level of invective and emotion was getting too high for a burger thread. It was Friday evening, and I wanted to share something positive. I''m sorry that didn't meet your approval.

BTW, explain exactly how I exhibit inertia?

Second, tell me how I'm trying to either defend McDonalds(to the hilt, as you say), or force people to eat there.

Why on earth would I give a rats ass what you eat.

Why on earth would I give a rats ass if every McDonalds on earth imploded tonight at midnight.

I'm trying to talk to you about the reasons why you are so passionate in your opposition to McD.

I like this one from Trotboy:'So if I hate mcdonald's, I'm racist?'

In order to get that conclusion out of my posts, he must be eating something even more tainted than Big Macs.

(You'll have to pardon the composition here, Im just letting it come as I think of points raised)

Re: garbage. Editor, like I said before, get your McDs to do what ours do, and send out a worker to pick up the garbage for two blocks around the restaurant.

And FTP, there is nothing contradictory about saying that McD here does the garbage pickup, but that people here are fairly ecologically conscious, and tend not to litter.

The important point is TEND. this city has 2 million people. Not all of them are David Suzuki clones. Some litter. McD employees pick it up, around mcd.

Show me the contradiction and I will, as the saying goes, eat my hat.

Hongkong fooey. No one expects perfect compliance with principle.

But when I see people smoking cigarettes made by Rothmans or Bat PLC, and drinking Interbrew beer, and all the rest, it is not disingenuous of me to point out the apparent - discrepancy of principle - in attacking the local burger outlet.


Trotboy says:

"So because I hate McDonalds, I'm racist? Er, I don't think so, our comrades in the USA also hate McDonalds, as do our comrades in France, in case you hadn't noticed. Diversity is only 'alive and well' (And I wouldn't say 'well' I'd say 'back from the brink') because paople like us have fought against the poison of globalisation. Besides which, whilst McDonalds is a primarily US owned multinational, it is a franchise operation, all UK outlets are run by people resident in the UK."


That is rich. Without 'people like you', the poor masses would be robbed of all diversity and mindlessly eating highly processed crap three meals a day.

Thank god they have you to think for them. They could never figure any of this out for themselves.

Give me a break.

Maybe, for reasons of their own, they choose to eat there from time to time.

They don't need you telling them what to do. What arrogance.

That kind of thought frightens me, namely the kind that presumes it knows better than everyone else. Steve apparently possesses it.

You don't like intertia? Then break away from the treadmill that says the masses are cattle that need you to enlighten them, and only you have the answer.

p.s. that restaurant looks nice. but I'll bet the sausages, etc meal is just as high colesterol as the Big Mac.

Just looks prettier.

And, I suppose it is politically correct to eat a carcinogenic meal, so long as it isn't served by a chain restaurant.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You know, FTP, you may have a point now that I think about it.

The only UK mcd I've eaten at was in Terminal 2 at Heathrow. The food was tepid, and yes, was around six pounds for a combo meal.

Six pounds!

We pay the equivalent of about 2.5 pounds for the same thing.

I wouldn't eat there again. Folks, they are ripping you off.

Come and try one of our McD. The food is hot and fresh, it's cheap, and they pick up the garbage.

Don't you guys believe in consumer advocacy?

And by 'consumer advocacy', I don't mean gelignite....

They can only fuck you if you're prepared to bend over....

Around here, if there's a bad restaurant, we vote with our feet...

 

[FridgeMagnet]

They must have seen you coming. They only charge natives half that.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Probably right, what with it being Heathrow, and me looking so British and all.

But still, three pounds = six bucks.

You're still getting ripped off.....

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Everything here is a rip-off. How else do you think we afford our magnificent public services?

And why else am I moving to the States, apart from sex?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I know it's not the only thing, and there are weightier issues out there, but Fridge? You will be up to your eyeballs in sex, you'll be rolling in it, it will be coming out every pore, you will have it for breakfast lunch and dinner.

Do you catch my drift?

But only if you want to, no one will force it on you.......

And yes, McD is cheaper.

But seriously, as a Canadian travelling in the US, the price differences are truly amazing.

Stuff is cheap there, and the taxes are lower. You get more of your own money in your pocket, and it goes farther.

I can't recall if you've been before, but the meals in the non chain places (which are the only places we eat when travelling) are humongous, and cheap.

No wonder so many Americans are obese...

Speaking of sex, have you heard the term 'ghetto booty'?

It is to die for......

(on second thought, decided to add a little to that last one. Ghetto booty refers to an area of the body, not to having sex with people in the ghetto)

 

[lost property]

I seem to have come to this discussion a bit late, but will add my bit anyway.

The reason why the campaign against McDonald's is so popular is because of the way it encompasses so many of the issues which are now part of the "anti-capitalist/globalisation movement".

If you go back to the 80s, a lot of activism was centred around single issues. Environmental issues had been growing in importance since the end of the 60s and (in Britain) the animal rights movement only really gained momentum at the beginning of the 80s.

McDonald's was nothing more than a high profile example of a multi-national company. It provided plenty of fodder for drawing together not just environmentalism and animal rights, but also workers' rights, the power of advertising (particulary towards children), healthy eating and more.

Then came their massive own goal (the McLibel trial) which raised the profile of the campaign even more. Is it any wonder they're the first target on demos worldwide? Surely even their own execs must know why.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Not worldwide, lost property.

 

[lost property]

Ok, for the pedants, instead of "worldwide", try "in many places spread widely around the globe" (don't have a list to hand).

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Gotta go, it's suppertime.

I'm going to try an experiment.

I'm going to go to McD right now, get a double quarter pounder meal, a Happy Meal for my kid.

We will eat them

Then I'll go home and drink a couple of stellas. They sell them here, too, just like UK and Romania, and India. and....

I was going to finish off with a Nestle chocolate bar, but I will only go so far....

I will then have sex, god and my wife willing. She will smoke a cigarette made by Benson and Hedges.

I will report back tomorrow on the results, physical and mental, of this odyssey.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Lies! All lies....?

 

[lost property]

LMAO at the link JC. Can't be bothered to check out each of McD's diversity, or whatever, awards individually, but as I'm sure you must know, these things aren't handed out by some omniscient do-gooder being, and are more to do with profile raising and backslapping.

For an account of how some McDonald's staff in Canada were intimidated when trying to form a union, try this link