Do You Agree that the USA should Reduce its Military Expenditure and Close its Overseas Bases?

[Elpenor]

South Korea basically has the same fanatic mindset as North Korea except for capitalism not the cult of the supreme leader

 

[RD2003]

The world has always been divided into hostile camps. The idea that there ever was a golden age of of peace and cooperation in international affairs is an ahistorical and pre-lapsarian fairy tale.

The sides in the Cold War also weren't from the same ideological stable, even if they both truly wanted world peace, they would have wanted it "on their own terms" as you admit.

Liberalism and Marxism are both western ideologies. Slavophile dissidents like Solzhenitsyn came to regard Soviet communism as an alien import unsuited to and destructive of Russia's traditions.

I never mentioned a golden age of any kind.

 

[RD2003]

Clearly, if it wasn’t for their meddling compliant media they’d be all over the idea of starvation, labour camps and state-regulated haircuts.

Yes, clearly I suggested that if it werre not for the media South Koreans would want to merge with North Korea.

 

[NoXion]

Liberalism and Marxism are both western ideologies.

Yet in opposition they still ended up bringing the world to the brink of destruction.

 

[krtek a houby]

Miserabilism is the most destructive ideology. Be wary of those who promote it.

 

[RD2003]

Miserabilism is the most destructive ideology. Be wary of those who promote it.

Too right, miserablism is responsible for so much slaughter. Unlike optimism, which did, in the face of miserablist doubters, prove definitively that Iraq could become a western-style liberal democracy with little loss of life, and was behind the massive success of the Ukrainian counter-offensive last year.

 

[andysays]

"I was happy in the haze of a drunken war
But Heaven knows I'm miserable now..."

 

[PTK]

Given the revelations about "Stake knife" (Freddie Scappaticci), perhaps the “Troubles” were the outcome of a conspiracy by the British Army to provide a rationale for maintaining its numbers.

 

[Dystopiary]

Too right, miserablism is responsible for so much slaughter. Unlike optimism, which did, in the face of miserablist doubters, prove definitively that Iraq could become a western-style liberal democracy with little loss of life, and was behind the massive success of the Ukrainian counter-offensive last year.

Miserablism ≠ healthy scepticism tho.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

We could probably use a rollback on the number of bases. A lot of them aren't much really. People picture huge bases with miles and miles of buildings. You do find that, but sometimes a base is just a glorified gas station. One of my many jobs as a younger person was being an attendant at an Army guard base. It was a guard shack, a clipboard, some keys, and a gas pump. My job was that if anyone showed up was to check their paperwork and unlock the pump, take a reading when they were done, and lock it up again. I never saw a soul in the entire time I was there, although it was just one summer. (This shit you do to keep from starving...)

 

[Cid]

The US should get out of places like DIego Garcia and Guantanamo Bay, might be a better case for them staying in places like South Korea where something like 90% of the population wants them there - tbh, if it's going to keep the fucking PRC out of Taiwan, I hope they build more bases

It would probably help more if US-PRC diplomacy wasn't in a shit state though... I don't have a particularly committed view on basing, but I do think over-emphasis on military solutions can act as a displacement of responsibility.

e2a: to be clear this isn't just 'well, inherently hard to have good diplomatic relations with the PRC', it has been an acknowledged issue since the Obama years, and obviously pretty dire under Trump. Not an expert, usual caveats etc, but that is what I gather from centre-left China watcher media, including interviews with former diplomats etc.

 

[Rimbaud]

Yes, clearly I suggested that if it werre not for the media South Koreans would want to merge with North Korea.

It isn't a huge logical leap that the absence of US military in South Korea could mean reunification under a China-backed North.

 

[Rimbaud]

South Korea basically has the same fanatic mindset as North Korea except for capitalism not the cult of the supreme leader

There's definitely something in Korean culture which enables North Korea to be particularly fanatical and which also finds expression in South Korea in near-worship of the Chaebols but it's still a bit of a leap to draw an equivalence between North and South Korea.

 

[Cid]

There's definitely something in Korean culture which enables North Korea to be particularly fanatical and which also finds expression in South Korea in near-worship of the Chaebols but it's still a bit of a leap to draw an equivalence between North and South Korea.

Generous. I'd say there's a fair bit of resentment around Chaebols and Korean capitalism in general at the moment... Usual issues around ridiculous work hours, horrendous commutes, sky-high property values. Because, y'know, Koreans are actual people. Also see all the scandals around Chaebols, the impeachment (and imprisonment) Of Park Geun-hye etc.

I mean there definitely are shared characteristics that have favoured paternalistic hierarchies within the sinosphere/neo-confucian states... But yeah, over-simplifying that is er... Problematic let's say.

 

[Elpenor]

There's definitely something in Korean culture which enables North Korea to be particularly fanatical and which also finds expression in South Korea in near-worship of the Chaebols but it's still a bit of a leap to draw an equivalence between North and South Korea.

Perhaps it’s more the Koreans I’ve been exposed to, but that’s the vibe I picked up from visiting there several times and spending a lot of time with them. Frankly a bunch of nasty bigots.

Generous. I'd say there's a fair bit of resentment around Chaebols and Korean capitalism in general at the moment... Usual issues around ridiculous work hours, horrendous commutes, sky-high property values. Because, y'know, Koreans are actual people. Also see all the scandals around Chaebols, the impeachment (and imprisonment) Of Park Geun-hye etc.

I mean there definitely are shared characteristics that have favoured paternalistic hierarchies within the sinosphere/neo-confucian states... But yeah, over-simplifying that is er... Problematic let's say.

Well aware of the social issues that their “devil takes the hindmost” ultra capitalist society causes.

 

[PTK]

The people in South Korea have actually had a couple of uprisings. There was an uprising in the late 1940s, and in 1980. It was popular pressure that brought down the dictatorship.

 

[Cid]

Perhaps it’s more the Koreans I’ve been exposed to, but that’s the vibe I picked up from visiting there several times and spending a lot of time with them. Frankly a bunch of nasty bigots.


Well aware of the social issues that their “devil takes the hindmost” ultra capitalist society causes.

As are they. I mean when was the last time we imprisoned a prime minister for corruption/cronyism? Danger of extending from people you've met to an entire country. I mean fuck, try randomly meeting English people. That is not going to give you any good impressions of this place. And maybe it shouldn't, but whatever. I had a bunch of young Korean friends in China (studying), which is going to have it's own selection biases of course, but they're universally fucking hating Korean work culture at the moment. As I understand it this is not an uncommon sentiment, it's reflected in plenty of media etc. Not some radical strain of anti-capitalism of course, but people are aware that a small number of huge corporations/families exercising so much power has its downsides. It's just not easy to remove entrenched power structures; that is a universal issue.

 

[krtek a houby]

Perhaps it’s more the Koreans I’ve been exposed to, but that’s the vibe I picked up from visiting there several times and spending a lot of time with them. Frankly a bunch of nasty bigots.

Hmm. Said something similar about the English the other week and got crucified for it.

And rightly so.

Generalisations about entire nations aren't helpful.

Be it about Koreans, English, Russian, Ukrainians etc.

 

[Elpenor]

I was talking about the ones I’ve met

Perhaps it’s more the Koreans I’ve been exposed to,

 

[PTK]

The development of the economy of South Korea is an example of the fact that the "free market" alone cannot develop an underdeveloped capitalist economy. The state played a very large role in South Korea.

 

[RD2003]

It isn't a huge logical leap that the absence of US military in South Korea could mean reunification under a China-backed North.

Or the Chinese might welcome the absence of a hostile military presence, and not want the burden of involvement in a volatile situation, or the civil war that would quite possibly follow an attempt at reunification .

Or maybe not. I don't know what Chinese thinking on the matter is, and neither does anybody else.

 

[RD2003]

The people in South Korea have actually had a couple of uprisings. There was an uprising in the late 1940s, and in 1980. It was popular pressure that brought down the dictatorship.

I've never taken much notice of South Korea, but I do seem to remember 1980s news items about rioting students and a militant labour movement.

 

[likesfish]

There are two huge British military bases in Cyprus.

The UK was a guarantor of the independence of Cyprus, a former British colony.

When the Republic of Türkiye invaded the Republic of Cyprus in 1974, occupying about a third of its territory, the UK did nothing. Forty years later there are still Greek Cypriot people who were expelled from Northern Cyprus who cannot go home. (There are also Turkish Cypriot people displaced from the south who cannot go home). The Republic of Türkiye also settled people from its territory to Northern Cyprus, to change the demographic balance.

British overseas bases, like US overseas bases, primarily exist to defend the economic interests of the ruling classes of those countries, not peace or sovereignty or democracy.

The UK did nothing because the Greek cypriots decided enosis was a brilliant idea and it would be even better if KEBABS were permantly removed unfortunately for this glorious Greek Paradise a very angry neighbour with several airborne divisions turned up to ask some very pointed questions