Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[SpackleFrog]

I don't presume to know your gender expression better than you, but I still call bullshit that 'you've never dressed with the conscious motivation to express your gender'. Everybody does at some point, and most cis people do all the time, regardless of whether that dress matches the usual expected/norms of gender based upon your assigned sex (or not). It's just cis posturing from those that hold trans people up to higher scrutiny.

Eh?

 

[stethoscope]

Eh?

Eh? What?! Consciously expressing your gender doesn't mean going to some sort of extreme/stereotyped dress, but everybody does it regardless - we mostly look, buy and wear clothes daily based on stuff that is for our gender, and at times we are expected to adhere to (work dress codes, formal evenings, etc). We consciously go shopping for clothes in the sections that correspond to our gender, we decide what we like and we consciously decide to wear stuff before we go out. Well, unless everybody wears loincloths and I missed it. If it was unconscious, why not, as say a man just see the first thing you see in a shop (that might be a dress), buy it and wear it? (and I don't mean in a cross dress or trans sense). Something is stopping a man doing this and it's not because its unconscious.

My only criticism is when cis people seem to think they have somehow exempted themselves from this ritual, or hold trans people to higher scrutiny with their dress/gendered expectations (policing).

 

[smokedout]

Or you could ask them whether making visible changes in order to conform to a sterotype perpetuates that stereotype.

So on the one hand you've got people who are trans - which when used correctly as an umbrella term means people changing gender, fucking with gender, rejecting gender, playing with gender or varying their gender - and on the other hand you've got non-trans people like you, accidentally or 'unconsciously' reproducing gender in every deed whilst pointing at the trans people and going look at you, you're doing gender, that's terrible, gender's bad.

No-one can guess your motivations, but it looks to me as if you're actually policing the very gender system that as a man benefits you. But you're probably doing that unconsciously as well, like when you wear trousers.

By the way - if gender reproduction is unconscious, then that is a very strong argument for gender being inherent, natural, essential and even biological. See how reactionary your position looks from outside your head.

 

[Athos]

So on the one hand you've got people who are trans - which when used correctly as an umbrella term means people changing gender, fucking with gender, rejecting gender, playing with gender or varying their gender - and on the other hand you've got non-trans people like you, accidentally or 'unconsciously' reproducing gender in every deed whilst pointing at the trans people and going look at you, you're doing gender, that's terrible, gender's bad.

No-one can guess your motivations, but it looks to me as if you're actually policing the very gender system that as a man benefits you. But you're probably doing that unconsciously as well, like when you wear trousers.

By the way - if gender reproduction is unconscious, then that is a very strong argument for gender being inherent, natural, essential and even biological. See how reactionary your position looks from outside your head.

Yes, in my reply to Frogwoman, I acknowledged that 'trans' covers a wider range than I meant; that I should have been clear that I was talking about people who move from one binary state to the 'opposite' one.

I've also acknowledged my role in reinforcing gender binary, albeit unconsciously. And, of course, as a man, I benefit from the current conception of gender.

I don't know how you go from that to me 'policing' gender. Or how any of it detracts from the points I made above.

I don't accept your contention that the unconscious reproduction of gender stereotypes is essential; it could just s early be a product of socialisation.

 

[laptop]

if gender reproduction is unconscious, then that is a very strong argument for gender being inherent, natural, essential and even biological. See how reactionary your position looks from outside your head.

It's not even a weak argument for that. The reproduction of capitalist relations is also largely unconscious. You are arguing.... ?

 

[smokedout]

It's not even a weak argument for that. The reproduction of capitalist relations is also largely unconscious. You are arguing.... ?

yes, the reproduction of capitalist relations is based in real material conditions (unlike gender) and policed, consciously, with violence.

 

[killer b]

Is gender not policed violently?

 

[Athos]

yes, the reproduction of capitalist relations is based in real material conditions (unlike gender) and policed, consciously, with violence.

Do you think the subjugation of women is nothing to do with material conditions?

 

[smokedout]

Yes, in my reply to Frogwoman, I acknowledged that 'trans' covers a wider range than I meant; that I should have been clear that I was talking about people who move from one binary state to the 'opposite' one.

I've also acknowledged my role in reinforcing gender binary, albeit unconsciously. And, of course, as a man, I benefit from the current conception of gender.

but you seem to think your role in reinforcing gender isn't as bad as those who are trans, because you're doing it by accident, not choice, despite the fact you very clearly have a choice.

I don't know how you go from that to me 'policing' gender. Or how any of it detracts from the points I made above.

I was just suggesting an unconscious motivation, you are criticising people for transcending a gender binary you maintain and benefit from. You might be criticising them for not transcending it enough, but you don't transcend it at all, which is a curious position. That's why I wondered about an unconscious motivation.

 

[smokedout]

Is gender not policed violently?

yes, though less formally

 

[smokedout]

Do you think the subjugation of women is nothing to do with material conditions?

yes to be fair, although again less formally. that's why it's conscious, people own stuff, and know they own stuff, including owning people.

 

[Athos]

but you seem to think your role in reinforcing gender isn't as bad as those who are trans, because you're doing it by accident, not choice, despite the fact you very clearly have a choice.



I was just suggesting an unconscious motivation, you are criticising people for transcending a gender binary you maintain and benefit from. You might be criticising them for not transcending it enough, but you don't transcend it at all, which is a curious position. That's why I wondered about an unconscious motivation.

Where have I criticised trans people for doing that? Where have I suggested they are any worse than me for so doing? In fact I explicitly stressed that people are equally responsible (in responding to you). I just pointed out that there is a qualitative difference between the conscious and unconscious reproduction of gender stereotypes. I attached no moral judgement to that fact. I think you're arguing against what you though (or hoped) my position was, rather than what I said.

 

[stethoscope]

Where have I criticised trans people for doing that? Where have I suggested they are any worse than me for so doing? In fact I explicitly stressed that people are equally responsible (in responding to you). I just pointed out that there is a qualitative difference between the conscious and unconscious reproduction of gender stereotypes. I attached no moral judgement to that fact. I think you're arguing against what you though (or hoped) my position was, rather than what I said.

And yet as the discussion was talking about prisons, it was you in posts 1099 and 1141 that took it down a 'gender stereotype' route again.

 

[smokedout]

Where have I criticised trans people for doing that? Where have I suggested they are any worse than me for so doing? In fact I explicitly stressed that people are equally responsible (in responding to you). I just pointed out that there is a qualitative difference between the conscious and unconscious reproduction of gender stereotypes. I attached no moral judgement to that fact. I think you're arguing against what you though (or hoped) my position was, rather than what I said.

I don't believe the re[roduction of gender stereotypes on unconscious. it may be a habit, like smoking, and it may be socially enforced, like not shitting in the street, but it's conscious, people know what's going on and whether they are presenting as a man or a woman - to the point where misgendering their conscious identity is seen as a grave insult and personal smear.

you said by the way:

Ironically, it's arguable that trans people play a part in preventing that by consciously reinforcing gender stereotypes (albeit they are, at the same time, victims of them).

Why say that if you don't think it is worse than you, why not say "Ironically, it's arguable that I play a part in preventing that by consciously reinforcing gender stereotypes"

 

[Athos]

And yet as the discussion was talking about prisons, it was you in posts 1099 and 1141 that took it down a 'gender stereotype' route again.

It's a thread about lots of things. I didn't say what is being suggested, or anything that isn't germane (pun intended) to the topic.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Cis people are most definitely consciously aware of how clothing and behaviour relate to gender roles. They generally act to conform to those. I don't see how this is "unconscious". I may not make the decision every day "do I wear these trousers or go and buy a skirt?" but I'm perfectly aware that by dressing in male-approved clothing I am taking a particular position, and that I could do otherwise but there would be consequences.

 

[SpackleFrog]

but you seem to think your role in reinforcing gender isn't as bad as those who are trans, because you're doing it by accident, not choice, despite the fact you very clearly have a choice.

That seems a valid point to me.

I was just suggesting an unconscious motivation, you are criticising people for transcending a gender binary you maintain and benefit from. You might be criticising them for not transcending it enough, but you don't transcend it at all, which is a curious position. That's why I wondered about an unconscious motivation.

This I'm not so sure about - I think Athos is suggesting that some trans people embrace a gender binary rather than transcend it. The point that Athos probably also embraces a gender binary (consciously or unconsciously) I agree with, but I'm not sure its possible for somebody to "transcend" gender binaries within the context of a socio-economic system premised on gender binaries.

 

[Athos]

I don't believe the re[roduction of gender stereotypes on unconscious. it may be a habit, like smoking, and it may be socially enforced, like not shitting in the street, but it's conscious, people know what's going on and whether they are presenting as a man or a woman - to the point where misgendering their conscious identity is seen as a grave insult and personal smear.

you said by the way:

Why say that if you don't think it is worse than you, why not say "Ironically, it's arguable that I play a part in preventing that by consciously reinforcing gender stereotypes"

Because there's no irony in people who benefit from the idea of gender binary perpetuating it; there is an irony in it being perpetuated by those who suffer the most from it.

So, as you can see, I didn't say (or even imply) the criticisms of trans people (over and above those I accepted of myself and other cis people) of which you accused me.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Cis people are most definitely consciously aware of how clothing and behaviour relate to gender roles. They generally act to conform to those. I don't see how this is "unconscious". I may not make the decision every day "do I wear these trousers or go and buy a skirt?" but I'm perfectly aware that by dressing in male-approved clothing I am taking a particular position, and that I could do otherwise but there would be consequences.

This is the thing I don't get about the 'Cis' word - does it mean someone who consciously identifies positively with their assigned gender identity or someone who conforms to their assigned gender identity because they know there will be consequences if they don't?

 

[stethoscope]

This I'm not so sure about - I think Athos is suggesting that some trans people embrace a gender binary rather than transcend it. The point that Athos probably also embraces a gender binary (consciously or unconsciously) I agree with, but I'm not sure its possible for somebody to "transcend" gender binaries within the context of a socio-economic system premised on gender binaries.

Many trans people embrace the gender binary, some don't. Many cis people embrace the gender binary, some don't. So, I'm glad that's cleared up then. And yet, here we are…

 

[SpackleFrog]

Many trans people embrace the gender binary, some don't. Many cis people embrace the gender binary, some don't. So, I'm glad that's cleared up then. And yet, here we are…

It's not cleared anything up for me like but I'm glad you understand what you just said.

 

[toggle]

It's not cleared anything up for me like but I'm glad you understand what you just said.

that's sort of the point. that these things are complicated.

 

[smokedout]

Because there's no irony in people who benefit from the idea of gender binary perpetuating it; there is an irony in it being perpetuated by those who suffer the most from it.

So, as you can see, I didn't say (or even imply) the criticisms of trans people (over and above those I accepted of myself and other cis people) of which you accused me.

Ok, so it was just something you felt you had to point out, like when people say its ironic that some African tribal leaders benefitted from the African slave trade, just something we should all remember when talking about gender and transgender rights. Got you.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

This is the thing I don't get about the 'Cis' word - does it mean someone who consciously identifies positively with their assigned gender identity or someone who conforms to their assigned gender identity because they know there will be consequences if they don't?

In that instance it would have been better if I'd used some word meaning people who dress based on the gender role generally assigned to their physically displayed sex. I don't really know what the word is for that. It does cover a lot of people though.

 

[SpackleFrog]

that's sort of the point. that these things are complicated.

I know they're complicated, I thought that's why we were discussing them?

Many trans people embrace the gender binary, some don't. Many cis people embrace the gender binary, some don't. So, I'm glad that's cleared up then. And yet, here we are…

If the word 'Cis' can include a person who positively identifies with every aspect of their assigned gender as well as somebody who totally rejects all aspects of their assigned gender but feels unable to express an alternative gender identity and all points in
between then it seems to me to be a useless word.

 

[stethoscope]

If the word 'Cis' can include a person who positively identifies with every aspect of their assigned gender as well as somebody who totally rejects all aspects of their assigned gender but feels unable to express an alternative gender identity and all points in
between then it seems to me to be a useless word.

Cis simply means that someone's assigned gender is aligned to their sense of gender identity/sexed body. Trans is where there is a deep mismatch. It's not about gender stereotypes and dress.

 

[smokedout]

This I'm not so sure about - I think Athos is suggesting that some trans people embrace a gender binary rather than transcend it. The point that Athos probably also embraces a gender binary (consciously or unconsciously) I agree with, but I'm not sure its possible for somebody to "transcend" gender binaries within the context of a socio-economic system premised on gender binaries.

well it transcends a key element within gender which is that your gender expression should be based on the genitals you were born with

 

[LDC]

I though 'cis' was just used to mean people who identify as the gender they were born as? Nothing more than that.

 

[Thora]

I though 'cis' was just used to mean people who identify as the gender they were born as? Nothing more than that.

What does "identify as a gender" mean though?

 

[crossthebreeze]

Kids tend to have very rigid ideas about gender. They're trying to work this stuff out, and start off with rather inflexible notions.

but the inflexible notions are learned socially , and only kick in at a certain age (a minority of kids continue to ignore them regardless) - and plenty of adults are happy to enforce gender norms on their kids