Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[Athos]

It has never occurred to me to wear anything other than stereotypically male clothes; that's the point of my choice of those clothes being unconscious, in the sense that I haven't consciously selected them for the purpose of conforming with, and thereby perpetuating a gender stereotype (albeit that I am perpetuating it unconsciously).

 

[ViolentPanda]

What if one of the female inmates ends up pregnant (consensually or otherwise)? Not really a good answer to this tbh.

Happens already in womens' prisons, sadly.

 

[stethoscope]

Anyway, next time I'm out with my (trans women) mates I'll let them know they're doing it wrong with their jeans and tops. Now we have some men 'plaining stuff.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It has never occurred to me to wear anything other than stereotypically male clothes; that's the point of my choice of those clothes being unconscious, in the sense that I haven't consciously selected them for the purpose of conforming with, and thereby perpetuating a gender stereotype (albeit that I am perpetuating it unconsciously).

You're aware of the existence of the possibility, though. Only a small child thinks it's impossible for a man to dress in women's clothes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I remember the dreadful case of a young Asian man made to share a cell with a known racist violent bastard, who ended up killing him. The fucking screws were, imo, in part responsible for his murder.

Feltham. Violent shit-hole staffed by sexual inadequates (don't ask) and amoral right-wing scumbags.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Probably if you had a prison system based on small scale rehabilitative communities than on the mass production lines you have now it might be possible to tailor them to individual prisoners instead of trying to come up with rules which will work in any situation.

Where such ideas have been tried, they generally have a lower recidivism rate. The problem is that governments such as we've had in the UK for the last 36 years are loath to support such initiatives for fear of being represented as "soft on crime", so instead they follow a media agenda which is, in turn, an Establishment agenda, and we're left with "warehouses", plus the occasional rarity like HMP Grendon.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And again, I'm curious to know what we do about women who have been victims of serios sexual assualt ad child sexual abuse at the hands of other women.

In a perfect world, a judge would take such issues into consideration when sentencing. In the real world, that doesn't happen nearly often enough, and people get thrown to the wolves.

 

[Athos]

Anyway, next time I'm out with my (trans women) mates I'll let them know they're doing it wrong with their jeans and tops. Now we have some men 'plaining stuff.

Or you could ask them whether making visible changes in order to conform to a sterotype perpetuates that stereotype.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Would be interesting to know the truth about this. Do either of you have any evidence to support?

IIRC Human Rights Watch did research into male-on-male rape in US prisons that established (at least across their admittedly small sample) that such rapes were slightly more likely to be carried out by inmates convicted of raping women. I'd love to such a study repeated once every 5 years or so to see whether the original data pans out as a trend. if so, it'd certainly reinforce the "rape is more about power than about sex" position very strongly.

 

[Athos]

You're aware of the existence of the possibility, though. Only a small child thinks it's impossible for a man to dress in women's clothes.

Of course. But that doesn't undermine the point I was making, at all. I know it's possible to wear clothes to express a particular stereotypical gender identity; I have never consciously done that.

 

[Athos]

IIRC Human Rights Watch did research into male-on-male rape in US prisons that established (at least across their admittedly small sample) that such rapes were slightly more likely to be carried out by inmates convicted of raping women. I'd love to such a study repeated once every 5 years or so to see whether the original data pans out as a trend. if so, it'd certainly reinforce the "rape is more about power than about sex" position very strongly.

Interesting, but not evidence of either of the assertions I was questioning.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Of course. But that doesn't undermine the point I was making, at all. I know it's possible to wear clothes to express a particular stereotypical gender identity; I have never consciously done that.

really? How is it that you've avoided wearing dresses, skirts or blouses by accident, then? (assuming that you have)

It may be that you have never reflected on the meaning of what you're doing. But that's not quite the same as doing it un- or sub-consciously.

 

[Reno]

Of course. But that doesn't undermine the point I was making, at all. I know it's possible to wear clothes to express a particular stereotypical gender identity; I have never consciously done that.

What is the ongoing point of this reasoning ?

 

[killer b]

its important to recognise this as a specific case rather than draw up any generalisable rules from it.

Apparently there is an overall trans prison population of around 80 people. I think with such a small number of people - who will have a huge variation in how they see themselves, how they present, what crimes they're incarcerated for, what risks they present and what things they're at risk from etc, there can't be a generalisable rule.

 

[Athos]

really? How is it that you've avoided wearing dresses, skirts or blouses by accident, then? (assuming that you have)

It may be that you have never reflected on the meaning of what you're doing. But that's not quite the same as doing it un- or sub-consciously.

It's about conscious motivation. I have never been consciously motivated to dress for the purpose of expresing my gender.

 

[Athos]

What is the ongoing point of this reasoning ?

It is ongoing becasue myself and others are responding to one another.

 

[Reno]

It is ongoing becasue myself and others are responding to one another.

It's very repetitive and says nothing of value about trans people.

 

[stethoscope]

It's about conscious motivation. I have never been consciously motivated to dress for the purpose of expresing my gender.

Oh come off it. Stop playing the 'I'm so much more insightful than trans people in regards to my gender expression' cis posturing. Seen it all before. Fucking middle class male lawyer aren't you? Really.

Reno's right. I'm out of this toss.

 

[LDC]

Be interesting to know how many of those stated 80 are in for anything involving anything remotely serious. If it's anything like reasons for the imprisonment for most women generally they'll all be in for TV license avoidance, shoplifting, and minor drugs offenses. So basically they shouldn't even be locked up (accepting some liberal criminal justice as a basis for this discussion ).

 

[SpackleFrog]

You're aware of the existence of the possibility, though. Only a small child thinks it's impossible for a man to dress in women's clothes.

Seems a bit back to front that, I'd say small children are the least likely to have an issue with a man dressing in "womens" clothes. I think most small children would be less taken aback at that than my nan for example.

 

[Athos]

Oh come off it. Stop playing the 'I'm so much more insightful than trans people in regards to my gender expression' cis posturing. Seen it all before. Fucking middle class male lawyer aren't you? Really.

Reno's right. Out of this toss.

I'm not playing any game; in the post you've quoted, I've stated that I've never dressed with the conscious motivation to express my gender. DO you presume to know better than me my own expression (or not) of my gender?

I'm neither middle class, nor a lawyer (any more).

 

[Athos]

It's very repetitive and says nothing of value about trans people.

It's repetitive becasue I've been asked to clarify/challanged.

 

[LDC]

I love it when little kids are dressed as a random crazy animal like a dinosaur and nobody bats an eye, and then someone sees them wearing something pink/blue (delete according to boring and predictable gender stereotype) and people start freaking out that the kid is going to grow up with a confused gender identity.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Oh come off it. Stop playing the 'I'm so much more insightful than trans people in regards to my gender expression' cis posturing. Seen it all before. Fucking middle class male lawyer aren't you? Really.

Reno's right. I'm out of this toss.

Chill out.

Think what Athos is trying to say is that trans people could generally be understood as rejecting the gender binary they were assigned at birth in favour of the opposite gender binary, which doesn't neccessarily always marry very well with a conception of gender as a spectrum. He's not denying anyone their right to define their own gender or claiming to understand how trans people feel or owt. You can disagree with him if you like but give it a page or two before you accuse him of being a lawyer, that's a bit harsh.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Seems a bit back to front that, I'd say small children are the least likely to have an issue with a man dressing in "womens" clothes. I think most small children would be less taken aback at that than my nan for example.

Kids tend to have very rigid ideas about gender. They're trying to work this stuff out, and start off with rather inflexible notions.

 

[cesare]

Chill out.

Think what Athos is trying to say is that trans people could generally be understood as rejecting the gender binary they were assigned at birth in favour of the opposite gender binary, which doesn't neccessarily always marry very well with a conception of gender as a spectrum. He's not denying anyone their right to define their own gender or claiming to understand how trans people feel or owt. You can disagree with him if you like but give it a page or two before you accuse him of being a lawyer, that's a bit harsh.

He is a qualified lawyer - he's just not practising atm. He gives legal advice on the boards and disputes legal points with practising lawyers; it's not unreasonable for stethoscope to describe him as a lawyer.

 

[stethoscope]

Chill out.

Think what Athos is trying to say is that trans people could generally be understood as rejecting the gender binary they were assigned at birth in favour of the opposite gender binary, which doesn't neccessarily always marry very well with a conception of gender as a spectrum. He's not denying anyone their right to define their own gender or claiming to understand how trans people feel or owt. You can disagree with him if you like but give it a page or two before you accuse him of being a lawyer, that's a bit harsh.

I've seen this all before, including on this thread from Athos. And as someone who isn't cis (which I realise is a clumsy way of writing it but it's a bit complicated), I'm fucked right off with this bullshit.

 

[SpackleFrog]

He is a qualified lawyer - he's just not practising atm. He gives legal advice on the boards and disputes legal points with practising lawyers; it's not unreasonable for stethoscope to describe him as a lawyer.

Whoops, fair! Sorry.

 

[Athos]

He is a qualified lawyer - he's just not practising atm. He gives legal advice on the boards and disputes legal points with practising lawyers; it's not unreasonable for stethoscope to describe him as a lawyer.

But I explicity identify as a non-lawyer.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I've seen this all before, including on this thread from Athos. And as someone who isn't cis (which I realise is a clumsy way of writing it but it's a bit complicated), I'm fucked right off with this bullshit.

Fair enough, if its a continuation of summat I've missed you have at it.