Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[spanglechick]

It would be interesting to see where those stats come from. I have seen written elsewhere that transwomen offend at the same rate as men.

What is your source for this?

I have no source - and apologise if i presented a general understanding as a verified fact. My understanding was as a result of the reaction to the study published a year or so back, which was used by a lot of terf sites to claim that trans women are all out to infiltrate female spaces for nefarious purposes.

As I remember (and forgive me if i'm wrong) the study said oonly that trans women offend at the same rate as cis men, but did not break those stas down into comparing crimes aginst women, or sexual crimes - and to imagine that someone for whom gender was such a germaine issue would respond to gender dynamics in the same way as cis men seems iike an awfully big leap. If there's other research which does actually prove the idea, i'm surprised the TERF aren't all over it.

What there is lots of data on, is that trans women are mch more likely to expeerience sexual assault and rape than cis women, so the matter of how we provide for these women is ver important.

 

[Reno]

It would be interesting to see where those stats come from. I have seen written elsewhere that transwomen offend at the same rate as men.

Transwomen get into trouble with the law at a higher rate than women but not because of the same type of crimes men commit, especially not sex crimes. There is a disportionately high number of sex workers among transwomen. That's because gender realignment treatment and surgery is tremendously expensive and in many places there is no financial support for it. The only way to make the money is via prostitution or pornography and for many transwoman it's either that or suicide.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As I remember (and forgive me if i'm wrong) the study said oonly that trans women offend at the same rate as cis men, but did not break those stas down into comparing crimes aginst women, or sexual crimes - and to imagine that someone for whom gender was such a germaine issue would respond to gender dynamics in the same way as cis men seems iike an awfully big leap. If there's other research which does actually prove the idea, i'm surprised the TERF aren't all over it.

I'd like to have a look at that research, and see how it factors in socio-ecomonic factors. As Reno points out, many transwomen find themselves on the margins of society, and on the margins of legality, just in order to survive. You're not comparing like with like if you compare a group skewed in this direction with the general population. It's meaningless.

 

[toggle]

Presumably the right(s) of other women prisoners not to be incarcerated with a convicted rapist?

this assuming that women can't be sexual predators.

 

[Athos]

I'd like to have a look at that research, and see how it factors in socio-ecomonic factors. As Reno points out, many transwomen find themselves on the margins of society, and on the margins of legality, just in order to survive. You're not comparing like with like if you compare a group skewed in this direction with the general population. It's meaningless.

But, if the statistics are being used to assess the risk to cis women of being locked up with trans women, then the socio economic causes for trans women's offending is neither here nor there, in the immediate term. That said, I don't think the statistics should be used that way, even if they were sufficient (which, from what I've seen, they're not).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But, if the statistics are being used to assess the risk to cis women of being locked up with trans women, then the socio economic causes for trans women's offending is neither here nor there, in the immediate term. That said, I don't think the statistics should be used that way, even if they were sufficient (which, from what I've seen, they're not).

It is both here and there. 'offending' isn't some homogeneous whole.

 

[Athos]

It is both here and there. 'offending' isn't some homogeneous whole.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant that if the statistics were sufficient to point towards an increased risk of sex offending against women by trans women, then the cause of that offending is neither here nor there, from an immediate risk assessment perspective. (Whilst saying I'm not sure the figures show that, or should be used in that way, even if they did.) I don't deny your point that trans women are more likely to be forced into crime by their situation, and that this increase in numbers doesn't show the pattern of offending as compared to that of men.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant that if the statistics were sufficient to point towards an increased risk of sex offending against women by trans women, then the cause of that offending is neither here nor there, from an immediate risk assessment perspective. (Whilst saying I'm not sure the figures show that, or should be used in that way, even if they did.) I don't deny your point that trans women are more likely to be forced into crime by their situation, and that this increase in numbers doesn't show the pattern of offending as compared to that of men.

ok fair dos. I misunderstood.

 

[smokedout]

Ironically, it's arguable that trans people play a part in preventing that by consciously reinforcing gender stereotypes (albeit they are, at the same time, victims of them).

How is it arguable that trans people consciously reinforce gender stereotypes any more than non-trans people do?

 

[smokedout]

But if this person raped someone and still has that part of the anatomy? The only thing i can think of is a special segregated wing. People (male and female) have the right not to get dressed etc and be locked up with a convicted rapist and if there's the risk of getting pregnant that also makes things a bit more complex. I just think prisons are fucking horrible places for the majority of inmates that havent done things like that.

I hate to tell you this but prisoners are routinely locked up with sex offenders, nonces, even murderers and many cases of sexual abuse in prison have involved male (and female) screws, not transgender inmates.

 

[Athos]

How is it arguable that trans people consciously reinforce gender stereotypes any more than non-trans people do?

By explicitly embracing the binary distinction.

 

[frogwoman]

By explicitly embracing the binary distinction.

Not all of them do though do they? Plenty of non binary trans people around

 

[Athos]

Not all of them do though do they? Plenty of non binary trans people around

Yes, you're right. I should have said female-to-male or male-to-female trans people.

Worth repeating that, at the same time, they're victims of that distinction.

 

[stethoscope]

And the many trans people I've met and encountered over the years are just as diverse in their gender expression as cis people.

No double standards from cis privileged people. Oh noes.

 

[smokedout]

By explicitly embracing the binary distinction.

take a walk down the street and see how many people don't do that.

 

[frogwoman]

I hate to tell you this but prisoners are routinely locked up with sex offenders, nonces, even murderers and many cases of sexual abuse in prison have involved male (and female) screws, not transgender inmates.

Yeah I know, maybe I am wrong but I thought those prisoners were usually segregated from 'normal' prisoners, don't see why this can't be done here with this rapist

 

[Athos]

take a walk down the street and see how many people don't do that.

Fair enough. Maybe would have been fairer to say that they are equally responsible for perpetuating that system, notwithstanding that they suffer most as a result of it.

 

[stethoscope]

Fair enough. Maybe would have been fairer to say that they are equally responsible for perpetuating that system, notwithstanding that they suffer most as a result of it.

Yeah the minority of trans people are equally responsible for perpetuating that system than the majority of cis people.

 

[Athos]

Yeah the minority of trans people are equally responsible for perpetuating that system than the majority of cis people.

At the level of individuals within each group.

 

[smokedout]

Yeah I know, maybe I am wrong but I thought those prisoners were usually segregated from 'normal' prisoners, don't see why this can't be done here

well it could, thats the point really, and she'll probably end up segregated in a male prison anyway

 

[smokedout]

Fair enough. Maybe would have been fairer to say that they are equally responsible for perpetuating that system, notwithstanding that they suffer most as a result of it.

interesting how often this has come up on this thread though, almost as if gender is so embedded and comfortable for non-trans people that they don't even notice that they also reproduce it, it's only when it is transcended it becomes visible.

 

[Athos]

Yeah I know, maybe I am wrong but I thought those prisoners were usually segregated from 'normal' prisoners, don't see why this can't be done here with this rapist

Probably go to a men's prison, then housed on the nonce wing for her own protection. Whilst this seems the best pragmatic solution, it's conceptually very different from her going to a woman's prison, and whether she should then be segregated for the protection of the other women.

 

[Athos]

interesting how often this has come up on this thread though, almost as if gender is so embedded and comfortable for non-trans people that they don't even notice that they also reproduce it, it's only when it is transcended it becomes visible.

True enough. Though there's arguably a difference between the unconscious reinforcement of gender, and the explicit embracing of it.

 

[smokedout]

True enough. Though there's arguably a difference between the unconscious reinforcement of gender, and the explicit embracing of it.

tell me again how trans people explicitly embrace gender more than non trans people?

 

[Athos]

tell me again how trans people explicitly embrace gender more than non trans people?

You acknowledged yourself that, for cis people, it's 'embedded.' I took that to mean unconscious. My point was simply that there's a qualitative difference between unconscious and conscious action.

 

[smokedout]

You acknowledged yourself that, for cis people, it's 'embedded.' I took that to mean unconscious. My point was simply that there's a qualitative difference between unconscious and conscious action.

embedded doesn't mean unconscious, you consciously choose your clothes in the morning despite having an articulate criticism of gender don't you?

 

[Athos]

embedded doesn't mean unconscious, you consciously choose your clothes in the morning despite having an articulate criticism of gender don't you?

I don't consciously dress to express my gender, no.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't consciously dress to express my gender, no.

(assuming you're not a cross-dresser) you are consciously aware that you dress in men's rather than women's clothes, though. You are consciously aware that you shop in Top Man, not Dorothy Perkins, say.

 

[stethoscope]

I don't consciously dress to express my gender, no.

I presume you'll be wearing a dress then.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Presumably men who rape men go to male prisons - I believe they segregate sex offenders to some extent... but perhaps not on remand / in all prisons. Essentially I'm saying that the prison system already has to deal with prisoners who are put in orison for raping people of their own gender. Surely this woman can be dealt with in the same way.

Segregation is mostly at the request of individual inmates - a relative few are segregated for their own safety by prison authorities - and usually results in the inmate being taken out of the general population and stuck in the prison's "vulnerable prisoners unit". Not all prisons have them, but most Category A and B prisons do, and remand prisoners can request segregation to a VPU.

Btw - it's interesting that no one seems too concerned about ethnic minorities who are put inside alongside people guilty of racially motivated GBH etc. Clearly rape is more terrible a crime for the person attacked, than assauly would generally be, but the risk would be of GBH becoming manslaughter/murder... and being killed is as bad as it gets.

One of the reason there's little concern about that in penal circles is that the hard right are in a tiny minority in English and Welsh prisons - except among the staff (seriously) - so BaME inmates tend to be able to look after themselves. They shouldn't have to, but tend to.