brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yes, but this is someone who has been convicted of child-rape of a 15 year-old girl as a man, being incarcerated with women.
Why do some feminists hate transgender people?
- Thread starter D'wards
- Start date
The trans woman who raped a 15 yr old girl and admitted to being a paedophile (when found with indecent images of children), and who hasn't undergone any treatment or physical changes, will no doubt be put in a nonce wing. It feels to me like s/he should be in a male prison, he's still a man isn't he? Is it enough just to say, I feel like I'm a woman, and then to 'become' a woman? I suspect I'll get slaughtered for this post, but these are genuine questions. Sorry if they cause offence to anyone.
I remember the dreadful case of a young Asian man made to share a cell with a known racist violent bastard, who ended up killing him. The fucking screws were, imo, in part responsible for his murder.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Robbie Stewart - later ended up begging anarchists to support him (and got himself a good rep as a prisoners lawyer). No one done for the choices made.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Indeed, I've just had (another) very long discussion about rape survivor services (among other things) being open to anyone that identifies as a women. Should this be whoever says they're a woman, at any stage, even if it their presence is triggering to those people in the group? And what about (the very very rare now) women only spaces that exclude trans women? Is that ever OK? What about in groups of survivors of sexual abuse who can't talk in front of people they think of as men?
Swines, they knew the risks to that poor lad. I seem to recall the family had asked that he be moved, to no avail.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
There was a really bad dramatisation made of it last year. Stewart said he was going to be the first to kill inside in the new millennium. Not sure if he got his record.
How can a man, who identifies as a woman, really, truely understand some of the issues faced by a life-time of being female? As much as he identifies as female, he is unlikely to have faced the same experiences/oppression as girls/women. Wouldn't it better if trans women/men formed trans support groups for really sensitive issues such as sexual abuse, rather than joining gender specific groups where they might inhibit people's ability to share/discuss their experiences?
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Probably if you had a prison system based on small scale rehabilitative communities than on the mass production lines you have now it might be possible to tailor them to individual prisoners instead of trying to come up with rules which will work in any situation.
I don't think what you're saying is offensive at all but maybe its important to recognise this as a specific case rather than draw up any generalisable rules from it.
I don't think what you're saying is offensive at all but maybe its important to recognise this as a specific case rather than draw up any generalisable rules from it.
Reno
The In Kraut
Most transwomen don't claim to "truly understand" all of the issues faced by a life-time of being female and they generally don't all rush out to join women's groups. However one problem they face is that there aren't that many of them so unless they are in a large city, there wouldn't be enough of them to form trans support groups for specific issues like for instance a rape or a domestic abuse support group. So where are they supposed to go if they get raped or assaulted ? Transwomen come in for a lot of discrimination, violence and abuse. There also have been cases where transwomen have been excluded from all women spaces like music festivals which does strike me as discriminatory and petty.
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spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
And again, I'm curious to know what we do about women who have been victims of serios sexual assualt ad child sexual abuse at the hands of other women.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
Sorry, but if you don't intend to cause offense - and I believe you don't - the corrections above are really important.
Trans people are no longer their birth gender. It is not at all acceptable to refer to a trans woman as a man, or call her "he".
E2A - However,the rest of your question is interesting. I suppose i'd say that i don't think it matters very much, unless you're imagining a situation in which trans women started telling cis women that they were wrong about their experiences of growing up a cis female child.
I also would be mindful that no matter what oppression cis women like myself have experienced, it likely is in many ways outweighed by terrible experiences common to the childhoods, adolescences, and adulthoods of almost all trans women.
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Who is is this curiosity directed at? Is it a general question or one directed at someone making a case on here? It sounds like the latter.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
sorry, you're quite right - lazy lack of quoting. It was addressed primarily to LynnDoyleCooper above.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
Two things -if she's a paedophile, my understanding is that the adult women in prison are in not particular danger.
But my previous point still stands - how is it different to a man convicted of raping a 15 year old boy being sent to prison with men? In terms of risk to other inmates?
Thora
Differently Ethical
Sounds like the usual "what about" derailing of any discussion of women's issues - women murdered by their partners? "But what about women who commit domestic violence". Male rapists/violent offenders in female prisons? "But what about women who are rapists?" etc etc etc
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I honestly don't know, but I do think there are some really difficult and complex questions.
But I do know that the vast majority of sexual offences are committed by men against women, so asking what happens to the minority of women who have sexual offenses committed against them by other women is at best not that relevant, and at worst could be seen as derailing and marginalizing the other issues.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Structurally deep seated and unequal power relations between women and men that are different between men?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Genuine question spanglechick, what's your opinion on people being treated (legally as in this case) as a different gender to the one they were born as...
Do you think we should treat a man that says they're a woman as a woman from the first point they say that's the gender they now identify as, or do you think there needs to be some period of transition before that happens?
Do you think we should treat a man that says they're a woman as a woman from the first point they say that's the gender they now identify as, or do you think there needs to be some period of transition before that happens?
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
I'm not saying "what about" in the sense of "well this happens to those people too, so let's dismisss these other people's problem" - it's just, we're looking for a solution to a difficult problem. We can't just pretend abused trans women don't exist, or pretend they are men. Equally, we can't pretend that some cis women who have been abused by men might not feel inhibited or scared by the presence of trans women in refuges or shelters.
When a problem with no easy solution presents itself, it's surely wise to look at how that problem is resolved in its closest analogous situations? What do refuges do to allay those similar fears and inhibitions of women abused by other women? Can that help us here? Can we learn from those women's experiences of dealing wth a similar situation?
Unless you have a better way of trying to solve the problem so that all women, trans and cis, are respected n their fears and needs?
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
It's complex, because some people identify as gender fluid, or as neither gender, so it's not just a binary situation.
As I understand it (and being cisgendered, I can't speak from experience, nor can anyone claim to speak for all trangendered people) being transgendered is not ever an out of the blue choice. Even if the trans person is naming their real gender for the first time, they will have a history of that gender identity which goes back to childhood. They will be able to articulate (those some may need the support of therapy to feel able to do so) a near lifelong existance of their gender being at odds to their biology. Although of course, this stuff is as persona as it gets, and have no obligation to tell that stuff to all and sundry. That person is trans gender. It is not necessary for biological transformation to occur (and woud be inappropriate for non-binary people).
A period of transition is a difficult concept, because that person has been their trans gender for pretty much their whole life. The transition is into publically taking on the labelling of their trans gender.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Thanks for your answer.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
Yes. That too. Perhaps i'm wrong though, but my understanding is that there is a very low risk of trans women sexually assaulting / raping other women. Statistically the same sort of risk as any woman sexually assaulting other women.
Thora
Differently Ethical
It would be interesting to see where those stats come from. I have seen written elsewhere that transwomen offend at the same rate as men.
crossthebreeze
Well-Known Member
What is your source for this?
Athos
Well-Known Member
Would be interesting to know the truth about this. Do either of you have any evidence to support?
Athos
Well-Known Member
The only thing I can see is this:
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden
It suggests that trams women's criminality is more akin to that of men than to that of cis women, this includes violent crime, though does not seem to refer specifically to sexual offending.
'Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.'
That said, I would attach no weight to the study at this stage, without knowing a lot more about what was done, by whom, how and for what purpose.
Furthermore, I'm not sure decisions about how prisoners should be accommodated ought to be made on a statistical basis, anyway.
And, let's not forget that the statistics show much more clearly how vulnerable trains women are to becoming victims of crime.
Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden
It suggests that trams women's criminality is more akin to that of men than to that of cis women, this includes violent crime, though does not seem to refer specifically to sexual offending.
'Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.'
That said, I would attach no weight to the study at this stage, without knowing a lot more about what was done, by whom, how and for what purpose.
Furthermore, I'm not sure decisions about how prisoners should be accommodated ought to be made on a statistical basis, anyway.
And, let's not forget that the statistics show much more clearly how vulnerable trains women are to becoming victims of crime.
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