Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[Athos]

I've seen this all before, including on this thread from Athos. And as someone who isn't cis (which I realise is a clumsy way of writing it but it's a bit complicated), I'm fucked right off with this bullshit.

The fact that you've seen it before, and that it fucks you off, doesn't say anything about its value.

 

[laptop]

I've seen this all before, including on this thread from Athos. And as someone who isn't cis (which I realise is a clumsy way of writing it but it's a bit complicated), I'm fucked right off with this bullshit.

Why? It's a discussion about gender. It affects all of us. All of us have the capacity to observe its effects (and some more than others the capacity to analyse those observations interestingly).

There are* trans people whose conscious expression of binary roles outdoes almost everyone else's.

(*In the spirit of Athos' analysis, I could say "there exists at least one" and "I'm looking at you, Jan Morris". But that would be misunderstood by those who don't want anyone to analyse.)

 

[Athos]

Think what Athos is trying to say is... He's not denying anyone their right to define their own gender or claiming to understand how trans people feel or owt.

But it's much easier to cast someone as a hater, then dismiss what they have to say, than it is to engage with the substance.

 

[LDC]

Anyway, while this topic is being discussed this project is relevant, and always needs support of all kinds...

Home | Bent Bars Project
The Bent Bars Project is a letter-writing project for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, gender-variant, intersex, and queer prisoners in Britain. The project was founded in 2009, responding to a clear need to develop stronger connections and build solidarity between LGBTQ communities inside and outside prison walls.

 

[Reno]

Why? It's a discussion about gender. It affects all of us. All of us have the capacity to observe its effects (and some more than others the capacity to analyse those observations interestingly).

There are* trans people whose conscious expression of binary roles outdoes almost everyone else's.

(*In the spirit of Athos' analysis, I could say "there exists at least one" and "I'm looking at you, Jan Morris". But that would be misunderstood by those who don't want anyone to analyse.)

...and there are cis people for whom the same is true:

 

[laptop]

...and there are cis people for whom the same is true:

Hence my deliberate use of the word "almost".

 

[stethoscope]

I've stated that I've never dressed with the conscious motivation to express my gender. DO you presume to know better than me my own expression (or not) of my gender?

I don't presume to know your gender expression better than you, but I still call bullshit that 'you've never dressed with the conscious motivation to express your gender'. Everybody does at some point, and most cis people do all the time, regardless of whether that dress matches the usual expected/norms of gender based upon your assigned sex (or not). It's just cis posturing from those that hold trans people up to higher scrutiny.

And I certainly didn't think I was painting you as a 'hater'? I was calling you out that's all where I think you're privilege is showing. So, will leave it there.

 

[Thora]

Talking of dressing, has anyone read this article about Jaden Smith? Why Jaden Smith as the face of LV womenswear is threatening transgender territory
I can't tell if it is a spoof or not

 

[Reno]

Hence my deliberate use of the word "almost".

In the end even with the "almost" in place, what is the point of your statement ? Both cis and trans people are on a wide spectrum when it comes to gender expression.

At least be honest and just say what you mean, the old prejudice that trans women are caricatures of real women. You are carefully veiling an insidious stereotype. Of course you are going to act all innocent next and pretend that this isn't what you meant.

 

[stethoscope]

Talking of dressing, has anyone read this article about Jaden Smith? Why Jaden Smith as the face of LV womenswear is threatening transgender territory
I can't tell if it is a spoof or not

The piece is a load of shit that's for sure.

 

[trashpony]

Kids tend to have very rigid ideas about gender. They're trying to work this stuff out, and start off with rather inflexible notions.

They don't start out with them. They are pushed into them.

 

[laptop]

You are carefully veiling an insidious stereotype. Of course you are going to act all innocent next and pretend that this isn't what you meant.

Er, OK, you know what's in my mind better than I do

You, on the other hand, probably unconsciously, propagate the myth and prejudice that "trans people" are exclusively those who now identify as women

 

[Athos]

I don't presume to know your gender expression better than you, but I still call bullshit that 'you've never dressed with the conscious motivation to express your gender'. Everybody does at some point, and most cis people do all the time, regardless of whether that dress matches the usual expected/norms of gender based upon your assigned sex (or not). It's just cis posturing from those that hold trans people up to higher scrutiny.

And I certainly didn't think I was painting you as a 'hater'? I was calling you out that's all where I think you're privilege is showing. So, will leave it there.

Your argument turns entirely on you purporting to know my motivations better than I do.

 

[Reno]

Talking of dressing, has anyone read this article about Jaden Smith? Why Jaden Smith as the face of LV womenswear is threatening transgender territory
I can't tell if it is a spoof or not

Jaden Smith has been in the media for dressing in women's clothes for a couple of years now. Why that is is really up to him. He could be doing it for many reasons, including eventually coming out as transgender (or being a transvestite, or being just fashion conscious) He is privileged, he is attractive, he is in the public eye so his experimenting with gender fluidity will be very public and can be monetised.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Er, OK, you know what's in my mind better than I do

Reno has a point, though. Why say this? Isn't it just liable to sound like it's conflating transwomen with drag queens? Drag queens are generally caricatures of feminine stereotypes. But they are also generally gay men, not transwomen.

 

[Reno]

Er, OK, you know what's in my mind better than I do

You, on the other hand, probably unconsciously, propagate the myth and prejudice that "trans people" are exclusively those who now identify as women

Considering I have a good mate who is a transman, I don't think so.

 

[Thora]

Jaden Smith has been in the media for dressing in women's clothes for a couple of years now. Why that is is really up to him. He could be doing it for many reasons, including eventually coming out as transgender (or being a transvestite, or being just fashion conscious) He is privileged, he is attractive, he is in the public eye so his experimenting with gender fluidity will be very public and can be monetised.

Are you saying the author's concern is reasonable?

 

[Thora]

What kind of prison should transmen go to? Are there any transmen in the prison system?

 

[Reno]

Are you saying the author's concern is reasonable?

I don't think it is reasonable because experimenting with gender fluidity isn't exclusive to transpeople. People do it for all sorts of reasons.

 

[stethoscope]

Your argument turns entirely on you purporting to know my motivations better than I do.

One can only assume that you unconciously go the men's section of clothes shops all the time then, and unconciously buy men's stuff you like which you then unconciously wear. Why not buy and wear some nice ladieswear if you like it and its an unconscious decision?

(Perhaps you do of course)

 

[laptop]

Reno has a point, though. Why say this? Isn't it just liable to sound like it's conflating transwomen with drag queens? Drag queens are generally caricatures of feminine stereotypes. But they are also generally gay men, not transwomen.

Neither of you read my footnote, with an actual example. I used to know Jan Morris. An actual trans person.

 

[laptop]

Talking of dressing, has anyone read this article about Jaden Smith? Why Jaden Smith as the face of LV womenswear is threatening transgender territory
I can't tell if it is a spoof or not

I don't think it is a spoof:

The danger for trans women is that if wearing what are traditionally women’s clothes becomes the norm for men too, then trans women will no longer be able to rely on these props to help them display a female gender identity - and for many, that could be a serious problem.

Of course it will take time - a long, long time even - for things to change to the extent where men wearing skirts and girly stuff will be totally acceptable.

But trans people should be aware that well-known faces like Jaden Smith are starting to encroach on our territory. They’re starting to wear the trans uniform without actually stating that they are transgender, and they’re claiming it for themselves under the guise of gender-neutral fashion. All of which begs the question: where does that leave us?

 

[Reno]

Neither of you read my footnote, with an actual example. I used to know Jan Morris. An actual trans person.

So fucking what ? Being queer I'm around transgender people all the time.

What is the point in making the statement you made other than perpetuating a stereotype ? Nobody is saying stereotypes can't be true, but they don't grasp the wide spectrum of gender expression which is the case for all genders and sexualities. I may know a "real" woman who could be described as hyper feminised. But so what ? She doesn't represent all women and it's not something I bring up on every thread about "women" or feminism. And the same is true for Jan Morris.

 

[Athos]

One can only assume that you unconciously go the men's section of clothes shops all the time then, and buy men's stuff you like which you then wear. Why not buy and wear some nice ladieswear if you like it and its an unconscious decision?

(Perhaps you do of course)

To be honest, I've only been clothes shopping a handful of times in the last 20 years; the Mrs buys my clothes. I'll ask her if she's ever made a conscious decision not to dress me as a woman.

 

[stethoscope]

Neither of you read my footnote, with an actual example. I used to know Jan Morris. An actual trans person.

Because no one else on this thread knows an actual trans person?

(I know who Jan Morris is btw)

 

[stethoscope]

To be honest, I've only been clothes shopping a handful of times in the last 20 years; the Mrs buys my clothes. I'll ask her if she's ever made a conscious decision not to dress me as a woman.

Alright, whatever

 

[spanglechick]

What kind of prison should transmen go to? Are there any transmen in the prison system?

Male prisons. I'm not sure why that would be in question either. Trans men are men. Trans women are women.

 

[stethoscope]

Kids (smaller children, rather than teens) can be remarkably laid back about seeing/perceiving visibly trans people and enquiring, my experience/observations are that adults find it more concerning than their children.

 

[Athos]

Male prisons. I'm not sure why that would be in question either. Trans men are men. Trans women are women.

That would be my starting point. Then, within that estate, the question of whether they need to be segregated (for their safety, or that of the other prisoners) can be decided on a case by case basis (and not based on statistics). In this case, that'd mean a woman's prison, and then segregated to protect the other women from a rapist.

 

[stethoscope]

So fucking what ? Being queer I'm around transgender people all the time.

What is the point in making the statement you made other than perpetuating a stereotype ? Nobody is saying stereotypes can't be true, but they don't grasp the wide spectrum of gender expression which is the case for all genders and sexualities. I may know a real woman who could be described as hyper feminised. But so what ? She doesn't represent all women and it's not something I bring up on every thread about "women" or feminism. And the same is true for Jan Morris.

This this this Reno!