Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[littlebabyjesus]

What does "identify as a gender" mean though?

Do you think of yourself as a girl or as a boy?

I think most people have an opinion about that.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Cis simply means that someone's assigned gender is aligned to their sense of gender identity/sexed body. Trans is where there is a deep mismatch. It's not about gender stereotypes and dress.

But you just said some Cis people don't embrace a gender binary. Or is the difference that there is a "deep" mismatch as opposed to a "shallow" mismatch?

 

[Athos]

Ok, so it was just something you felt you had to point out, like when people say its ironic that some African tribal leaders benefitted from the African slave trade, just something we should all remember when talking about gender and transgender rights. Got you.

Nothing any of us says here 'has' to be said. It was true, but was a very minor point; it only became an issue when you (and others) latched onto it, and misrepresented - deliberately or otherwise - what I actually wrote. And, when being confronted with that undeniable fact, rather than apologise you have preferred to go with some implied smear. One that withstands no scrutiny given my repeated comments on this thread and others, in which I have been at pains to stress that I consider trans women to be women with a right to define their own gender.

 

[LDC]

What does "identify as a gender" mean though?

My understanding (totally might be wrong) was that someone born as a man, identifies as a man, and lives as a man, would be called a cis man with this terminology.

 

[Thora]

Many millions of female bodied women reject the gender identity that society imposes on them and actively fight against gender constructs.

 

[SpackleFrog]

well it transcends a key element within gender which is that your gender expression should be based on the genitals you were born with

I thought we came up with the concept of gender in the first place to differentiate between sex and gender?

 

[LDC]

Do you think of yourself as a girl or as a boy?

Woman or man please.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

but the inflexible notions are learned socially , and only kick in at a certain age (a minority of kids continue to ignore them regardless) - and plenty of adults are happy to enforce gender norms on their kids

Yes and no. I would argue that kids actively look for gender and a host of other things. A bit like language acquisition - they are not passively absorbing, but are active in the process of acquiring the ideas, trying stuff out, formulating their own rules based on what they find around them as they try to work it out.

 

[Thora]

Do you think of yourself as a girl or as a boy?

I think most people have an opinion about that.

I am female. If you're talking about the construct of "girl" or "woman" as a set of behaviours, and outward expressions of gender then that is something society puts on female bodied people.

 

[LDC]

Many millions of female bodied women reject the gender identity that society imposes on them and actively fight against gender constructs.

Most I know would say they're fighting against gender roles rather than against being identified or considered a woman I'd have thought?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Many millions of female bodied women reject the gender identity that society imposes on them and actively fight against gender constructs.

Millions reject the label 'woman'?

 

[stethoscope]

Many millions of female bodied women reject the gender identity that society imposes on them and actively fight against gender constructs.

Rejecting gender constructs isn't your 'self' of being a woman/female though is it? Gender identity isn't imposed by society, gender role based on sex is (under patriarchy).

 

[8115]

To identify as a gender would be to fit comfortably within a bell curve of the social, cultural and biological determinants (and maybe some other -als) of that gender.

Just like being straight isn't simple.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Yes and no. I would argue that kids actively look for gender and a host of other things. A bit like language acquisition - they are not passively absorbing, but are active in the process of acquiring the ideas, trying stuff out, formulating their own rules based on what they find around them as they try to work it out.

They look for social rules and modes of behaviour. Gender is strongly presented as one of those from day one. If it wasn't, they wouldn't have it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

To identify as a gender would be to fit comfortably within a bell curve of the social, cultural and biological determinants (and maybe some other -als) of that gender.

Just like being straight isn't simple.

Not sure I agree. I am male. I identify as male. Doesn't mean I live comfortably with the gender expectations of society. I don't, but that doesn't make me doubt my gender label.

 

[Thora]

Rejecting gender constructs isn't your 'self' of being a woman/female though is it? Gender identity isn't imposed by society, gender role based on sex is (under patriarchy).

I don't believe that "gender" is an innate thing I'm afraid.

 

[8115]

Not sure I agree. I am male. I identify as male. Doesn't mean I live comfortably with the gender expectations of society. I don't, but that doesn't make me doubt my gender label.

That's why I put in the bit about the bell curve.

 

[Thora]

Millions reject the label 'woman'?

By "women" do you mean "adult females" or "a set of behaviours and appearance adult females should conform to"?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's why I put in the bit about the bell curve.

But I think we're talking about two different things. One is a very simple binary: you're a girl or a boy, woman or a man. The other is a whole set of values, expectations, etc, that are placed on top of those binaries in a rather crude way. There is certainly a continuum there wrt the extent to which you are comfortable with what sits on top of the binaries, but that's not the same thing as feeling that you're sitting in entirely the wrong column.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

By "women" do you mean "adult females" or "a set of behaviours and appearance adult females should conform to"?

Just in terms of the answer to the question: Are you a woman or a man?

 

[Thora]

Just in terms of the answer to the question: Are you a woman or a man?

I'm an adult female who has been socialised as a girl and woman. HTH.

 

[stethoscope]

But you just said some Cis people don't embrace a gender binary. Or is the difference that there is a "deep" mismatch as opposed to a "shallow" mismatch?

Quite - some cis people don't embrace a gender binary (rad fem lesbian separatists, for example). Just as some trans people don't. Yet, many cis and trans people do. 'Deep' wasn't very helpful really, as clearly individuals are immensely complex - they have different sense of how their sexed and their outward gender stuff either aligns or mismatches with their assigned gender. After all, some trans people it's very much about being perceived as the gender they identify with, but may not particularly 'hate' their body/or seek surgeries. Others have a deep problem with their physical body, but don't particularly embrace the gender expression for the gender associated with their sex.

 

[8115]

But I think we're talking about two different things. One is a very simple binary: you're a girl or a boy, woman or a man. The other is a whole set of values, expectations, etc, that are placed on top of those binaries in a rather crude way. There is certainly a continuum there wrt the extent to which you are comfortable with what sits on top of the binaries, but that's not the same thing as feeling that you're sitting in entirely the wrong column.

Even biological gender isn't binary, even less so if you start thinking about the brain maybe.

I think we mean the same thing but maybe I don't accept the primacy of biology in determining gender here and you do.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Quite - some cis people don't embrace a gender binary (rad fem lesbian separatists, for example). Just as some trans people don't. Yet, many cis and trans people do. 'Deep' wasn't very helpful really, as clearly individuals are immensely complex - they have different sense of how their sexed and their outward gender stuff either aligns or mismatches with their assigned gender. After all, some trans people it's very much about being perceived as the gender they identify with, but may not particularly 'hate' their body/or seek surgeries. Others have a deep problem with their physical body, but don't particularly embrace the gender expression for the gender associated with their sex.

So what is the utility of the word 'Cis'?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Even biological gender isn't binary, even less so if you start thinking about the brain maybe.

I think we mean the same thing but maybe I don't accept the primacy of biology in determining gender here and you do.

There's a lot of crap spoken and written about 'male' and 'female' brains. I'm not really asserting a biological determinism, merely describing what is, or attempting to:

The accepted norm is that there are two genders (accepted in such a deep way that in many languages, including English, it's impossible not to use it without bending the language). My understanding would be that this is the 'cis' bit: if you don't feel it's wrong when you're identified by 'he' or 'she' as determined in the conventional way by certain biological facts, you're cis; if you do, you're not cis. After that, all kinds of things are up for grabs, I would think.

 

[8115]

There's a lot of crap spoken and written about 'male' and 'female' brains. I'm not really asserting a biological determinism, merely describing what is, or attempting to:

The accepted norm is that there are two genders (accepted in such a deep way that in many languages, including English, it's impossible not to use it without bending the language). My understanding would be that this is the 'cis' bit: if you don't feel it's wrong when you're identified by 'he' or 'she' as determined in the conventional way by certain biological facts, you're cis; if you do, you're not cis. After that, all kinds of things are up for grabs, I would think.

We basically agree but I think it's a bit more complicated than that.

 

[Athos]

I'm an adult female who has been socialised as a girl and woman. HTH.

Is that the same as being a woman? Or is the definition of the latter different - wider, or narrower? If so, how?

 

[8115]

There's a lot of crap spoken and written about 'male' and 'female' brains. I'm not really asserting a biological determinism, merely describing what is, or attempting to:

The accepted norm is that there are two genders (accepted in such a deep way that in many languages, including English, it's impossible not to use it without bending the language). My understanding would be that this is the 'cis' bit: if you don't feel it's wrong when you're identified by 'he' or 'she' as determined in the conventional way by certain biological facts, you're cis; if you do, you're not cis. After that, all kinds of things are up for grabs, I would think.

No, wait! We were discussing what it means to identify as a certain gender and disagreeing and then you changed the goalposts.

 

[Gromit]

There's a lot of crap spoken and written about 'male' and 'female' brains. I'm not really asserting a biological determinism, merely describing what is, or attempting to:

The accepted norm is that there are two genders (accepted in such a deep way that in many languages, including English, it's impossible not to use it without bending the language). My understanding would be that this is the 'cis' bit: if you don't feel it's wrong when you're identified by 'he' or 'she' as determined in the conventional way by certain biological facts, you're cis; if you do, you're not cis. After that, all kinds of things are up for grabs, I would think.

I think there is a lot of crap of things being either A or B. Sometimes its more a scale from A to Z and people place at various places along the scale be that sexuality identity, sexual preferences, personality traits , how much they like chocolate, whatever... .

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No, wait! We were discussing what it means to identify as a certain gender and disagreeing and then you changed the goalposts.

Not consciously. At its most basic, it's a question of 'do you think of yourself as "she" or "he", or something else?' All the various gendered stereotypes/expectations are built on top of that, and it's possible not to be happy with some, most, or even all of what society expects of the gender you identify with without that making you doubt the identification itself. And surely that brings us back to what stethoscope was saying: that within a group of transwomen or transmen you will find a wide spectrum of gender expression; that's not really what being trans is about.

Maybe I'm expressing this clumsily. And I'm open to correction, but that's about how I understand things.