Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[stethoscope]

I don't believe that "gender" is an innate thing I'm afraid.

If 'gender' is defined as expectations of someone's behaviour, role, presentation in society, based on their sex, then that's not an innate thing. 'Gender' is therefore primarily a social construct under which a majority of patriarchal societies makes women the oppressed class.

That can be different to a person's sense of their 'gender' in relation to their assigned gender/sex* (and whether they match, and to how match) surely? Sure, in such gendered societies it's very difficult to escape such an incredibly strong and ubiquitous pressure from gender and gender roles even as a social construct (cis and trans people), but 'Gender identity' as it relates to someone's sense of their degree of match with their assigned gender/sexed body doesn't proscribe gender role/other gendered stereotypes.


* Bearing in mind that assigning gender is historically based on cursory glances of primary sex characteristics that themselves aren't always clear. Even chromosomes aren't always clearly matched with primary sex characteristics.

 

[8115]

Not consciously. At its most basic, it's a question of 'do you think of yourself as "she" or "he", or something else?' All the various gendered stereotypes/expectations are built on top of that, and it's possible not to be happy with some, most, or even all of what society expects of the gender you identify with without that making you doubt the identification itself. And surely that brings us back to what stethoscope was saying: that within a group of transwomen or transmen you will find a wide spectrum of gender expression; that's not really what being trans is about.

Maybe I'm expressing this clumsily. And I'm open to correction, but that's about how I understand things.

But isn't that the point about making a distinction between sex and gender?

 

[stethoscope]

There's a lot of crap spoken and written about 'male' and 'female' brains.

Personally, I think the whole 'male/female brain' stuff is incredibly problematic - at least if its used any more than merely sexual dimorphism. Some parts of trans activism (but also society as a whole - 'why men lie, and women can't read maps', etc.) seem very invested in 'proving' this stuff, and when it's used as some sort of validation for how men/women act/think, etc. when actually they are talking about socially constructed gender.

 

[toggle]

Many millions of female bodied women reject the gender identity that society imposes on them and actively fight against gender constructs.

gender roles are not the same thing as gender identity.


i don't question my gender identity. i'm female. and i really do know that

that became more certain when i realised that i could challenge the gender roles and expression society had chosen for me without challenging my underlying gender identity. i'm female whether i'm wearing swing dresses or mens shirts and suits. i'm female whether i choose to go to a craft group or discuss the history of mine engineering and railway architecture. (to give actual examples) female isn't equal to feminine.

 

[stethoscope]

So what is the utility of the word 'Cis'?

Littlebabyjesus I think has made some points about this, but it should be noted that 'cis' really started off as something only used within trans and feminist politics - and in the same way as much older, more established terms when trying to discuss power dynamics and privilege between groups of people (e.g. 'straight privilege' in relation to LGB people, 'white privilege' in relation to black/minority people, 'male privilege' in relation to women/feminism). It was conceived in the same way to talk about the dynamics, oppression and issues facing trans people (or increasingly intersex, non-binary) in relation to those that weren't trans (majority of society). The aforementioned terms are much more widely understood, whilst 'cis' reflects the comparatively immature age of trans political discourse which has only gained traction in wider public in the last few years.

 

[Gromit]

Quite - some cis people don't embrace a gender binary (rad fem lesbian separatists, for example). Just as some trans people don't. Yet, many cis and trans people do. 'Deep' wasn't very helpful really, as clearly individuals are immensely complex - they have different sense of how their sexed and their outward gender stuff either aligns or mismatches with their assigned gender. After all, some trans people it's very much about being perceived as the gender they identify with, but may not particularly 'hate' their body/or seek surgeries. Others have a deep problem with their physical body, but don't particularly embrace the gender expression for the gender associated with their sex.

Its interesting to me what you've written here because of someone i was talking to last week in a very trans friendly place.
I didn't know that they were trans till about half way through the night when they mentioned they couldn't wait to grow facial hair.

Upon spotting my obvious puzzlement they explained they were transitioning from female to male and were currently taking hormones to that effect. (then made a self depreciating joke to feel free to run away now i knew, which sadly i recognize as a self defense mechanism no doubt developed from previous adverse reactions, which is when you think about it).

Anyhow, I was quite surprised because they were dressed very female and when I asked did they want me to switch from using she to he forms of address was told they didn't give mind either (her friends said it out loud the same time as her). Yes i stuck to her which i'll no doubt get criticized for but honestly it made the most sense at the time. And before i'm told i should use the person's name and avoid he and she altogether i was in that awkward situation where you've forgotten the name but don't dare ask again as you've been talking for hours and it would be embarrassing to ask etc.

The reason i mention all this is that thats the first time i've met a trans person who didn't firmly want to be perceived as the gender they personally identify as in both dress and vocab. So i guess that not necessarily hating their body that you mention above applied in this instance.

We didn't go into any depth talking about it any further. Why should we for one and Game of Thrones chat was far more interesting to both us for two.

 

[Thora]

gender roles are not the same thing as gender identity.


i don't question my gender identity. i'm female. and i really do know that

that became more certain when i realised that i could challenge the gender roles and expression society had chosen for me without challenging my underlying gender identity. i'm female whether i'm wearing swing dresses or mens shirts and suits. i'm female whether i choose to go to a craft group or discuss the history of mine engineering and railway architecture. (to give actual examples) female isn't equal to feminine.

Female is surely your sex, not your gender.

 

[Gromit]

Personally, I think the whole 'male/female brain' stuff is incredibly problematic - at least if its used any more than merely sexual dimorphism. Some parts of trans activism (but also society as a whole - 'why men lie, and women can't read maps', etc.) seem very invested in 'proving' this stuff, and when it's used as some sort of validation for how men/women act/think, etc. when actually they are talking about socially constructed gender.

I saw some brain chemistry tv documentary once and they weren't going that route they were measuring spacial awareness and they claimed it was linked to the amount of male hormones effecting the brain. They tried to back this up with a female engineer with good spacial awareness but who had more male hormones than most women.

Could have been bullshit but it seemed interesting and plausible at the time.

 

[stethoscope]

Female is surely your sex, not your gender.

I think that's mainly come from sex and gender being used interchangeably as terms to mean the same thing over the years in many day to day interactions (whilst obviously from feminist-political, and biological science discourse, sex and gender aren't the same).

 

[Gromit]

Female is surely your sex, not your gender.

You are correct, i've edited my brain typo.

 

[Gromit]

I think that's mainly come from sex and gender being used interchangeably as terms to mean the same thing over the years in many day to day interactions (whilst obviously from feminist-political, and biological discourse, sex and gender aren't the same).

The wiki entry says this which seems right:

The distinction between sex and gender differentiates sex (the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics) from gender, which can refer to either social roles based on the sex of the person (gender role) or personal identification of one's own gender based on an internal awareness (gender identity).[1][2] In some circumstances, an individual's assigned sex and gender do not align, and the person may be transgender,[1] or intersex.

The sex and gender distinction is not universal. In ordinary speech, sex and gender are often used interchangeably.[3][4] Some dictionaries and academic disciplines give them different definitions while others do not.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Personally, I think the whole 'male/female brain' stuff is incredibly problematic - at least if its used any more than merely sexual dimorphism. Some parts of trans activism (but also society as a whole - 'why men lie, and women can't read maps', etc.) seem very invested in 'proving' this stuff, and when it's used as some sort of validation for how men/women act/think, etc. when actually they are talking about socially constructed gender.

It's been pretty thoroughly debunked anyway I'd thought, with plenty of studies like The brains of men and women aren’t really that different, study finds

 

[Sea Star]

I don't believe that "gender" is an innate thing I'm afraid.

and by this statement you deny the realities and experiences of every trans person in existence.

 

[Sea Star]

It's been pretty thoroughly debunked anyway I'd thought, with plenty of studies like The brains of men and women aren’t really that different, study finds

this study is being so misinterpreted its untrue. I've had it tweeted at me - I've seen TERFs bandying it about.
Unfortunately the report itself is locked away behind a pay wall but in every article i've read it says around 6% of brains were determined to be "fully gendered" by the terms assumed in the study. 6% easily encompasses every trans person, estimated at around 2% of the population.

The researchers combed through more than 1,400 magnetic resonance images (MRI) from multiple studies of male and female brains, focusing on regions with the largest gender differences. In the first analysis, using brain scans from 169 men and 112 women, the researchers defined "malelike" and "femalelike" as the 33 percent most extreme gender-difference scores on gray matter from 10 regions. Even with this generous designation of "male" and "female" scores, the researchers found little evidence of the consistency they would need to prove brain dimorphism. Only 6 percent of brains were internally consistent as male or female, meaning all 10 regions were either femalelike or malelike, the researchers found. Another analysis of more than 600 brains from 18- to 26-year-olds found that only 2.4 percent were internally consistent as male or female, while substantial variability was the rule for more than half (52 percent).

In other words, there were very few individuals whose brain regions were all malelike or femalelike. And there was no clear continuum between the two endpoints. Instead, across both gray and white matter and in connectivity patterns, brains are so overlapping that calling a particular form male or female is meaningless, Joel and her colleagues wrote. [Men vs. Women: Our Key Physical Differences Explained]

I also understand that at least one of these "fully female" brains in the study was in the body of someone assigned male at birth.
This report actually seems to corroborate the trans experience including the fact that some people don;t feel gendered at all and that most people fit somewhere in between the extremes.

I don't actually consider myself to be fully gender normative as I exhibit many traits that others might consider to be male - such as being good at spacial stuff, engineering etc, but then I never bought into the whole gender role thing. I just know myself to be female and now, finally, live and present accordingly because it is closest to who i am. Living any other way would be dishonest and damaging to me as a person. I don't follow any kind of gender role, I merely make the choices that make me feel happiest.

Also, I'm not entering into a discussion. I'm physically shaking now just typing this. But I had to say something about this important study.

 

[toggle]

and by this statement you deny the realities and experiences of every trans person in existence.

i think some of the problems come from how we use terms. as in gender in terms of identity versus expectations/socialisation/roles/etc

 

[Sea Star]

i think some of the problems come from how we use terms. as in gender in terms of identity versus expectations/socialisation/roles/etc

Probably.

While Googling I also found this summary of research that might shed light on why transgender people feel the way we do.
The Transgender Brain

 

[toggle]

Probably.

While Googling I also found this summary of research that might shed light on why transgender people feel the way we do.
The Transgender Brain

thankyou.

 

[Gromit]

Also, I'm not entering into a discussion. I'm physically shaking now just typing this. But I had to say something about this important study.

You should have left this paragraph off.

Acting like a drama queen doesn't add any weight to your argument y'know.
If anything I think it robs it of weight.

Don't reply. I'm not discussing it with you. I've made my point. That it. /conceit

 

[krtek a houby]

... Acting like a drama queen ...

 

[Thora]

.

 

[Thora]

.

 

[Pickman's model]

You should have left this paragraph off.

Acting like a drama queen doesn't add any weight to your argument y'know.
If anything I think it robs it of weight.

Don't reply. I'm not discussing it with you. I've made my point. That it. /conceit

the only point you ever make on threads like this is how much of a wanker you are

 

[toggle]

You should have left this paragraph off.

Acting like a drama queen doesn't add any weight to your argument y'know.
If anything I think it robs it of weight.

Don't reply. I'm not discussing it with you. I've made my point. That it. /conceit

you fucking what?

 

[Pickman's model]

yes there is a female and a male brain: morphology versus functionality: Yes, there is a female and a male brain: Morphology versus functionality

 

[Thora]

.

 

[toggle]

So there aren't really female and male brains, very few people display stereotypical gendered behaviour, and yet one can "feel like a woman" separate from being a woman or being treated as a woman. I guess transgender women are truly the most womeny women there are.

i don't think gender roles and identity are the same thing.


and i don't think the sneering helps either

 

[krtek a houby]

Gromit's choice of wording might not be great due to the subject matter, but tbf all this I'm posting/I can't discuss this/you're on ignore/you're off ignore stuff is really annoying.

Then don't wind her up. You know how important trans related topic are to her, surely?

 

[Pickman's model]

Gromit's choice of wording might not be great due to the subject matter, but tbf all this I'm posting/I can't discuss this/you're on ignore/you're off ignore stuff is really annoying.

it's not so much his choice of wording as the message he is giving

 

[toggle]

Gromit's choice of wording might not be great due to the subject matter, but tbf all this I'm posting/I can't discuss this/you're on ignore/you're off ignore stuff is really annoying.

oh dear.

poor, poor you for being so terribly annoyed by the person who is trying to have a conversation they find hugely triggering. managing your irritation clearly trumps her anxiety over this

 

[bimble]

yes there is a female and a male brain: morphology versus functionality: Yes, there is a female and a male brain: Morphology versus functionality

Well that was very disappointing, was hoping to be given a good solid excuse for why I have no sense of direction and quite like kittens.