Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[toggle]

No, but it's a bit of a strawman to keep suggesting that the only arguments on the other side of the debate are the extreme and ridiculous ones (albeit they do exist, of course).

to be fair, it's the bizarre and illogical stuff that is getting shouted the loudest because most people inclined to being reasonable are trans inclusive.

i do find it hard to consider anyrthing trans exclusive as being reasonable, but perhaps groups like deep green resistance get cited as this, who view gender as a caste system and believe it requires dismantling not propegating and gender/sexuality issues aren't their primary remit. dosen't stop them having a lot of women only stuff, and imo, if you need a lot of women only meetings, then you're doing a good job of making sure that women feel the need for a separate space to be heard. so i reckon that a lot of the trans exclusive stuff tends to be somewhat illogically constructed and often hypocritical.

 

[killer b]

For all the grand talk of rejecting binaries earlier in the thread, a binary is precisely what posters are being presented with here: two choices, hateful terf or ally. I don't think it's a very constructive way of discussing it - it doesn't work in any other similar discussions, so why would it here?

 

[spanglechick]

For all the grand talk of rejecting binaries earlier in the thread, a binary is precisely what posters are being presented with here: two choices, hateful terf or ally. I don't think it's a very constructive way of discussing it - it doesn't work in any other similar discussions, so why would it here?

is it so different to how we discuss racism or homophobia?

 

[cesare]

There are various degrees of all kinds of social conservatism, or "isms". Some people reject the relevant "ism" in its entirety - people don't have to entertain a little bit nuanced exclusionism if they don't want to.

 

[cesare]

is it so different to how we discuss racism or homophobia?

Exactly.

 

[killer b]

is it so different to how we discuss racism or homophobia?

Shouting 'racist' at people who express disquiet at mass immigration is generally pretty counter-productive. While some insist on carrying on with that particular tactic, it's one I've argued against for some time. So, no. It isn't much different.

 

[killer b]

in fact, the same kind of binary choices you're asking people to make here are what resulted in Lisa Mckenzie getting called a racist the other week, and Laurie Penny calling spiney a racist.

 

[spanglechick]

Shouting 'racist' at people who express disquiet at mass immigration is generally pretty counter-productive. While some insist on carrying on with that particular tactic, it's one I've argued against for some time. So, no. It isn't much different.

nothing does work, though. Most people who wish to exclude transwomen from the category "women" do not do so, ime, because they just haven't heard the debate. People have heard all the reasoning and still reject it. Ultimately, then, not sure why those people deserve to have their feelings tiptoed around. If they say things that are offensive to transpeople having heard the full debate, then what's the value in making them feel that's ok?

I'd say, in the case of homophobia and racism, the fact that those examples of bigotry have been called out and are broadly now seen to be socially unacceptable has contributed to the somewhat diminished incidence of racism and homophobia in our society over the years.

 

[Athos]

What about someone who simply thinks homosexuality is sinful or unnatural? Is that hateful. They might accept that people believe themselves to be gay, and feel sorry for the pain they suffer, but conceive that since being gay is unnatural they are wrong about how they feel. Is that bigoted? What are the impacts of people being queer on heterosexual identity? What if the consequences are to drive people out of single sex spaces? Or make them feel unsafe?

The analogy is flawed. Quite apart from there beiong no equivalence with the practical consequences of homosexuality on heterosexual people, the nature of the judgment is different: in your example, it's moral; in mine it's definitial. Believing it's wrong to be gay is different from believing that womanhood is defined by particular characteristics.

 

[spanglechick]

in fact, the same kind of binary choices you're asking people to make here are what resulted in Lisa Mckenzie getting called a racist the other week, and Laurie Penny calling spiney a racist.

No idea about either of those cases.

Is it never acceptable to call szomeone a racist/homophobe?

 

[killer b]

nothing does work, though. Most people who wish to exclude transwomen from the category "women" do not do so, ime, because they just haven't heard the debate. People have heard all the reasoning and still reject it. Ultimately, then, not sure why those people deserve to have their feelings tiptoed around. If they say things that are offensive to transpeople having heard the full debate, then what's the value in making them feel that's ok?

But that isn't what's happening here is it? No-one on this thread is making any of the bigoted arguments that have been talked about, and yet posters have been dismissed as bigots.

Is it never acceptable to call szomeone a racist/homophobe?

of course it's acceptable in some cases. But in cases comparable to posts made on this thread?

 

[spanglechick]

But that isn't what's happening here is it? No-one on this thread is making any of the bigoted arguments that have been talked about, and yet posters have been dismissed as bigots.
of course it's acceptable in some cases. But in cases comparable to posts made on this thread?

I didn't realise we were only talking about posts on this thread.

 

[Sea Star]

But that isn't what's happening here is it? No-one on this thread is making any of the bigoted arguments that have been talked about, and yet posters have been dismissed as bigots.

Not by me. I've accused two posters of making TERF arguments and have had to block them to protect my state of mind. I don't need to see the arguments again as I know them backwards already, and they remain as flawed as they always did. People who continue to deny me the right to my own identity have no right to make me listen to them.

 

[Sea Star]

I didn't realise we were only talking about posts on this thread.

we weren't - this Thread is about TERF arguments - which only two posters are defending as far as I can tell.

 

[killer b]

I didn't realise we were only talking about posts on this thread.

I am - I thought I'd been pretty clear about that.

 

[spanglechick]

I am - I thought I'd been pretty clear about that.

ah, ok. you said there were no trans exclusionary types on here, thora was mentioned. Thora has posted trans-exclusionary views in the past, hasn't she? That afaia she hasn't distanced herself from?

Has anyone attacked her on this thread? I just see AuntiStella explaining why she has her on ignore, after you brought the matter up (edit - no, sorry - she brought it up, because she thought Thora was the ignored poster who was posting).

 

[killer b]

No, stella brought her up. She just didn't name her.

 

[Sea Star]

I never mentioned Thora till you did. I don't know her and when I checked I don't have her on ignore. I seem to remember you mentioned her first.

I didn't name her because I don't know who she is and I wasn't talking about her.

 

[killer b]

actually, I think there's at least one on here. Luckily I can't see what she's saying.

who were you talking about here?

 

[spanglechick]

No, stella brought her up. She just didn't name her.

yup - see my edit.

out of interest, whatls your own view on the inclusion of transwomen in the broad category "woman"?

 

[Sea Star]

who were you talking about here?

not Thora - I don't know who because I have two people on ignore. It'll be one of them I expect.

 

[toggle]

For all the grand talk of rejecting binaries earlier in the thread, a binary is precisely what posters are being presented with here: two choices, hateful terf or ally. I don't think it's a very constructive way of discussing it - it doesn't work in any other similar discussions, so why would it here?

should i be expected to be sensitive to those who are just a bit sexist, or racist, or those who think gays should just keep in the closet?

because an expectation to be sympathetic to a position that is exclusionary and bigoted and sets one group as proper people and another as second class citizens who can and should bge treated like crap, even though they are as a class more vulnerable....

tell me where else i'm supposed to be sympathetic to that kind of position. or are trans folk to be excluded from th club that deserve our full backup when they face shit and exclusion? or do i have to hug racists and mras as well as terfs?

 

[killer b]

out of interest, whatls your own view on the inclusion of transwomen in the broad category "woman"?

trans women are women as far as I'm concerned. Does that change anything?

 

[killer b]

should i be expected to be sensitive to those who are just a bit sexist, or racist, or those who think gays should just keep in the closet?

because an expectation to be sympathetic to a position that is exclusionary and bigoted and sets one group as proper people and another as second class citizens who can and should bge treated like crap, even though they are as a class more vulnerable....

tell me where else i'm supposed to be sympathetic to that kind of position. or are trans folk to be excluded from th club that deserve our full backup when they face shit and exclusion? or do i have to hug racists and mras as well as terfs?

I'm not asking you to hug anyone.

 

[redsquirrel]

it doesn't have to be hateful. The arguments themselves can send me into a spiral of depression. I've been warned not to let myself think too much about them. I understand them inside and backwards though, and the implications about me that arise from such arguments.

Look I'm sorry if you've been upset by the comments either Thora or Athos have made but the very fact you're lumping what they've said into the same category as TERF arguments shows that you haven't understood what they've been saying.

I mean Athos has quite clearly differentiated between what he personally believes and the position that some feminists have but you're still claiming he's "supporting the TERF line". I appreciate that this is clearly a very emotional issue for you but people disagreeing with your position does not make them TERFs

 

[smokedout]

The analogy is flawed. Quite apart from there beiong no equivalence with the practical consequences of homosexuality on heterosexual people, the nature of the judgment is different: in your example, it's moral; in mine it's definitial. Believing it's wrong to be gay is different from believing that womanhood is defined by particular characteristics.

The analogy is not exact, how could it be? My point was that once a lot of people didn't believe being gay was wrong, they didn't believe 'gay' really existed. They denied people the right to determine their own sexuality by erasing it from legitimate existence. Even the most moderate terf belives that transsexuality doesn't exist, it can't exist, that's why trans-women can't be women. Denial of transsexuality is what lies behind that belief. That someone isnt really what they feel they are, and has no right to feel that way, even if someone to all intents and purposes is virtually identical to a cis woman - and dont forget there is now a generation of young people who are trans (women) who have never experienced male puberty, who may have lived and been raised as girls, who have primary and secondary female sexual characteristics, fucks sake give it a couple of decades and they might have wombs and ovaries. To suggest they aren't women is nonsensical, bigoted and offensive, and unless you want to buy into patriachal ideas that femininity or beauty is what defines womanhood then this includes all trans-women, however they present and how far they decide to medically transition.

 

[sunnysidedown]

I take it the opposite of a TERF is a TILF? (Trans-Inclusive Liberal Feminist)?

 

[Sea Star]

I take it the opposite of a TERF is a TILF? (Trans-Inclusive Liberal Feminist)?

No - they're still radical - TIRF

 

[redsquirrel]

is it so different to how we discuss racism or homophobia?

Well I don't think it's very helpful in those cases either.

Trying to divide the world up into racists and non-racists is often useless, see the Fat White Family thread for a perfect example. While ideological racists still exist in todays Britain they are a fraction of the population, writing off huge swathes of the population simply as racists as if it's some binary state helps no one. In fact it's precisely that type of nonsense that has help feed the rise in UKIP.

 

[toggle]

I'm not asking you to hug anyone.

you are asking why i can't accept the validity of bigotry.......