Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

Just to say, I don't feel like a woman, I am a woman and I know this like anyone knows who they really are. Won't discuss this aspect further. Surely discussion of this sort is actually off topic for this thread? The title merely asks why some feminists hate trans women, not please question a trans woman's gender. I've had to put it on ignore anyway. It will only make me ill to try to engage.
 
It seems to me that some people, like Athos, are mostly trying to explain and understand how and why trans exclusionary folk think and say the things they do. And that is absolutely fine. In fact, it's essential. We should understand why people think the things they think, even when their views are vile. Athos has gone to great pains to also say he disagrees with their beliefs.

Where it crosses a line (this part is not specifically targeted at Athos but the discussion more widely) is when that argument starts suggesting that having tried to understand and explain the why, we should go further and accept a little bit of bigotry.

No.

Understanding why trans exclusionary people feel the way they feel doesn't mean we don't go on to challenge their beliefs. Having reasons for believing something doesn't exempt you from criticism for those beliefs, or exempt you from having those reasons argued with. While we try to understand why different forms of racism take hold in certain sections of society, we don't then say, "well, they've been shafted themselves in other ways, you can understand why they'd look for someone to scapegoat, and who can blame them with the media being what the media is... let them be racist, let's not try and challenge it, let's not work to educate, let's not try to fix the broken media, let's not try to fix the underlying power structures that foster and create this... leave them to it, eh?"

If we're talking specifically about people on this thread, it seems to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the people arguing against trans exclusionary positions have already been through the hows and the whys, and are moving on to challenging. Whereas those they are butting heads with aren't moving beyond the hows and the whys. That's why there seems to be an argument even though the hows and the whys keep insisting they personally are not trans exclusionary. Because when you're suggesting we should stop and only focus on understanding why trans exclusionary positions exist, you're telling us to not bother challenging it, which in turn can start to sound like you condone it, or perhaps think that the right to be trans exclusionary and to play a part in a world that is very fucking scary and shitty for trans people is more important than being able to live your life without feeling like you're going to harm yourself or be harmed for being who you are. For wanting to just be a person.
 
Which is hardly justification for what has been happening to trans people. Trans people don't want to exclude TERFs, just want TERFs to stop excluding us.if we were accommodated as women it would not impact on TERFs one bit, except maybe for the ideological repercussions from accepting us for who we say we are.
When a trans parliamentary candidate faces deselction proceedings for just saying she's a woman then there's a problem. And it's not a problem for trans its a problem for TERFs, because that is anti democratic.
Is thora trying to justify all that? I've read her post several times, and I can't see anything of the sort.
 
Do you not think that redefining gender as something essential, a feeling located in the brain/mind/soul rather than something that is socially constructed, is defining other people's identity though? I think this is what many of the women (not radical feminists) whose views I have read on sites like mumsnet have as a concern. Can you see that for many feminists, gender being an essential part of you, separate from either biology or lived experience/socialisation, feels like a backward step and some naturally are worried about it being accepted uncritically.

Your argument is with patriarchy and the tools it uses to exert control and further certain power relations. Your argument is not with trans men and women who have to try to navigate those systems along with you, as do non-binary people, agender people, gender fluid people, intersex people...

Essentialism is most often tied to ideas of biology, biological determinism, etc. I'm not sure I follow how you're separating essentialism out from biology here, I'd like to know more about what you mean.

An essentialist argument might be that because you have a vagina you must like pink things and be naturally maternal and like baking and must be a bad driver. While essentialist arguments can theoretically be based on gender (swap out 'because you have a vagina' to 'because you are a woman'), in reality they are justified by biology.

Can you understand how your argument has essentialist elements to it? While you're saying people are justified in being trans exclusionary because to accept trans people is to give succour to essentialism, you're following with the argument that a trans woman cannot know what it is to truly be a woman because there is something essential to the experiences of cis women that trans women can't know. The logic is that cis women are positioned so as to be treated in a certain way by society from birth, because of their biology, and so they are able to wear the label of 'real woman' as a result. A trans woman isn't a real woman because she wasn't positioned as female from birth, because of her biology.

Of course, I must ask, if we accept this argument, what is the age cut-off for this? What of children who express that they are trans at a very early age and are allowed to live as their felt gender, and who transition medically as soon as they are able? What of a child who as soon as it can talk says "I'm not a boy, I'm a girl, mummy," and is allowed from that age to pick their own name, and is brought up as a girl from that point onwards? Have they had a sufficient amount of time being acted upon by society as a girl/woman to be accepted? If we agree that gender is all social construction, then if society has treated this child as a girl since she was very young, and let's say she passes very easily because her transition started young and she never went through male puberty... then by your logic she is a girl/woman, yes? Because it's not about the biology, it's about the way society constructs her and treats her, yes?

If we start talking about motherhood and sex being used as instruments of control... to a woman who has been living as female since they were very, very young, those things still apply in the same way, yes? If that person passes, and has no reason to announce to everyone and every institution they encounter "I'm trans" and instead does what every other woman does and just exists self-evidently as a woman (and previously as a girl), then the same expectations and social constructions apply. That she can't bear children means nothing - there are plenty of cis women who cannot either (and plenty more besides who simply never want to have children) but we know they are still women, and they are still victims of the system that grew out of using motherhood as a weapon of control. And we know trans women can still be raped. Some trans women are victims of sexual violence because they are trans, but for those who pass from an early age, they are as much at risk of rape and other forms of sexualised and gender-based violence as any cis woman.

So they are 'real women' too, yes? I mean, they fit the rules laid out about it being how society constructs gender and acts on women in certain ways as a result, right?

So is there an age cut-off? And if there isn't, if all trans women aren't 'real women' and threaten to undermine the position of cis women and all the desperately hard work they do to cast off the yoke of gender essentialism, then why aren't those children included? Is it because there is something 'essential' about being female?

This is a very long-winded (but important, I think, nevertheless) way of coming to the point that the debate around trans issues does itself no favours by focusing on ideas of essentialism versus social construction. Certainly, feminism in general does itself no favours by focusing on the zero sum game of black/white rather than doing the hard work of digging for nuance and understanding how power works.

We don't understand the brain, chemistry, or environmental factors properly. We make guesses based on the little bits of evidence we have, but those bits of evidence are regularly uprooted and replaced with different bits as we do another study, gain another advancement in medical science, and so on. We like to bluster and say "it's all social construction" or "it's all environmental factors" and some of us might say "you are what you are from the womb" - but the reality seems to be that it's a bit of everything, and what we don't yet understand is whether it's chicken first or egg. Just like with chicken and egg, we can't know the extent to which biology has an effect on how we react to environment, or to what extent environment has on rewiring our brains. Not yet, anyway. We just know that the two do interact, and it's messy and complicated.

I used to feel a bit uncomfortable with the "Born this way" thing in LGB stuff. Not because I doubt they've always known they were gay, but because of the implications about essentialism. I guess that's the same thing you're saying, right? But here's the thing: I understand the "born this way" thing has been used to counter the argument that LGB people can 'choose' to be gay or straight, where it's anything but a choice, it's just what you feel. How do you begin to dig down and uncover that exact moment you 'became' gay, bi or straight, and the reasons for feeling that way? And why should you? We have bits of information from twin and other sibling studies that suggest your placement as a sibling (e.g. middle child) sees you more likely to be gay if your mother only has sisters, and other such things (I can't remember the exact study I'm thinking of so the details are likely incorrect, but that's the gist of the thing it was showing). Is that nature or nurture? Couple it with the studies about extra bits biological and chemical junk (chromosomes, DNA, again, I'm sketchy on details, the one I'm thinking of had something to do with something turning on or turning off...) that were found in certain gay men, and we're none the wiser. We don't know enough to understand whether it was environmental factors acting on the mother that impacted the biological processes in the son that in turn made him more likely to feel a certain way when confronted with a particular environment growing up... but that right there is a big old mix of biology and environment, all the while being confronted by social expectation and the construction of normative sexual orientation. So what's the real answer? Dude's just gay, is all.

So instead of spending our lives blaming the gay guy for fucking with our attempts to show that gender roles and heteronormativity are social constructions every time he says "I was born this way," rather we understand that we don't understand, and it doesn't matter anyway, because the enemy is those who would police the boundaries of 'acceptable' sexual activity and attraction, and those who use heterosexual female sexuality as a means of control over women, and traditional ideas of what it is to be masculine as a means of control over both men and women. Likewise, instead of spending our lives blaming a trans woman for fucking with our attempts to show that society constructs gender roles in order to keep us in line because that trans woman has always known she was female, rather we direct our ire and our anger at a society that would create these false binary oppositions in an attempt to control us in the first place.

I repeat, trans women are not your enemy. Trans women are your allies in fighting against the systems of control and oppression that profits so well as we pit ourselves against each other in policing what we are allowed to be.
 
Last edited:
If this conversation is a trigger for you, you should genuinely have nothing to do with it. Nothing good can come of it for you.
I'm inclined to agree.

I'm also not sure whether using this grouping 'terf' is so useful. Strikes me that it is polarising and not all that useful given the range of opinion among those who don't, or struggle to, accept trans-women as women. There are at one extreme female separatists or intellectuals like Greer who very definitely have an agenda. But there are also many with no agenda at all, simply mixed or confused feelings.

Redsquirrel brought up earlier the problems with screaming 'racist', but imo that is slightly wrong. It's just that not all racism takes the form of BNP-style hatred. I think this is similar - I do think intolerance or prejudice should be called out as such, but not all intolerance or prejudice is the same.
 
The argument that accepting the self-identification of transwomen redefines or erases the experiences of other women is quite unsettling. It gives a licence for people who are not really directly affected by their identification to castigate or criticise them in a way which can really be harmful. It ends up looking a lot like the people who are against gay marriage. For them marriage is between a man and a woman and many genuinely believe that gay people getting married somehow devalues and lessens their marriage and this is their justification for telling other people they shouldn't get married when it really doesn't affect them.

I can see that the idea that a transgender woman can intrinsically be a woman, contradicts gender being entirely a social construct. But I don't see why their identification stops women (or men) viewing their own gender in this way. And the link between biology and gender, along with so many other aspects of our brain and psychology is so complicated and poorly understood that I don't see why this contradiction should be a particular concern, certainly not when maintaining a dogmatic position about it demonstratably causes massive harm to transgendered people in everyday life.
 
The existence of trans people challenges the whole notion of gender identity. To that extent, it does change what men and women have previously understood as a relatively fixed part of their identity. I think the issue may as well be confronted.
 
The existence of trans people challenges the whole notion of gender identity. To that extent, it does change what men and women have previously understood as a relatively fixed part of their identity. I think the issue may as well be confronted.

It does. And it does so in a way that can be beneficial to the project of pointing out how gender roles are socially constructed. Which is why the arguments that the identity of trans people must be resisted because gender roles are socially constructed is so muddle-headed, quite apart from being downright dangerous to trans people themselves.
 
There are other world societies where the concept of gender identity differs from ours, also. For example native (first nation?) americans.
 
There are other world societies where the concept of gender identity differs from ours, also. For example native (first nation?) americans.

eg. two spirit people.

those who encompassed aspects of the male and female, in body and/or in mind. and could indicate intersex, transgender or gay people but was seen socially as more akin to a third (and fourth) gender. two spirit people often had highly respected spiritual roles.
 
eg. two spirit people.

those who encompassed aspects of the male and female, in body and/or in mind. and could indicate intersex, transgender or gay people but was seen socially as more akin to a third (and fourth) gender. two spirit people often had highly respected spiritual roles.
Yes, that's what I was thinking of (just as an example, there are more). But because it's so closely aligned (intersected, oh dear *runs* :D) with spiritual/religious beliefs it doesn't map too well as a direct comparison. But I do think that some western society/philosophy seems insular and narrow minded (socially conservative?) compared with other world societies past and present. I blame it on religion and capitalism working with patriarchy for control and extracting profit for the few.
 
I was about to say the same. Theories on gender from a feminist PoV is steeped in criticisms of women's relationship to Capital / Patriarchy. I had this conversation with some friends and I think we struggled to find m/any examples of truly matriarchal / egalitarian societies so any reading suggestions would be appreciated.
 
I've read a lot of this thread, though not all of it. What I see is the same arguments as on other threads that I have read in full. Forgive me if this has been covered here, but I haven't seen it elsewhere on urban (or have missed it).

1) I think it's uncontroversial to say that babies are assigned a gender at birth, based on their external sex characteristics. Sometimes these are ambiguous and what happens next (surgery, deferred decision, assigning a gender anyway) will depend, but in the main, this is how gender assignment happens. I'm not glossing over what happens in ambiguous situations because they're unimportant - they're clearly very important, especially for the people affected - but because I want to see if we agree that the above is how gender assignment happens when there are unambiguous external sex characteristics.

2) I think it's also uncontroversial to say that there are differences between the genders in brain structure and function in childhood and in adulthood. There is plenty of evidence to support this. Do we agree?

3) It's more controversial to say, but possible for everyone to understand, that gender-based brain differences in structure and function in childhood and adulthood can be a product of the socialisation that results from the gender assignment in point 2. Note the deliberate omission of a definite article in front of the emboldened phrase in this point, 3.

4) Accepting that gender-based brain differences in structure and function exist demands the very important caveat, imo, that any conclusions on the 'moral' or 'natural' rightness of particular power structures (by this I mean patriarchy) need to be treated with extreme caution.

5) Is everyone aware that some brain structures differ between babies depending on their external sex characteristics at birth? There is evidence. At birth being the salient information. Because unless we believe that gender conditioning begins in the womb, socialisation cannot account for these differences. Here's some evidence that differences are present at birth (key bits emboldened):

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/27/6/1255 said:
Although there has been recent interest in the study of childhood and adolescent brain development, very little is known about normal brain development in the first few months of life. In older children, there are regional differences in cortical gray matter development, whereas cortical gray and white matter growth after birth has not been studied to a great extent. The adult human brain is also characterized by cerebral asymmetries and sexual dimorphisms, although very little is known about how these asymmetries and dimorphisms develop. We used magnetic resonance imaging and an automatic segmentation methodology to study brain structure in 74 neonates in the first few weeks after birth. We found robust cortical gray matter growth compared with white matter growth, with occipital regions growing much faster than prefrontal regions. Sexual dimorphism is present at birth, with males having larger total brain cortical gray and white matter volumes than females. In contrast to adults and older children, the left hemisphere is larger than the right hemisphere, and the normal pattern of fronto-occipital asymmetry described in older children and adults is not present. Regional differences in cortical gray matter growth are likely related to differential maturation of sensory and motor systems compared with prefrontal executive function after birth. These findings also indicate that whereas some adult patterns of sexual dimorphism and cerebral asymmetries are present at birth, others develop after birth.

http://thejns.org/doi/abs/10.3171/jns.1999.91.4.0610 said:
The goal of this study was to construct a model of normal changes in intracranial volume occurring throughout childhood from age 7 days to 15 years. Methods. Using the technique of segmentation on magnetic resonance images obtained in healthy children, intracranial volume was measured and plotted against age. Conclusions. Intracranial volume in the first few months of life is on average 900 cm 3 in males and 600 cm 3 in females. By the age of 15 years, it increases up to 1500 cm 3 in males and 1300 cm 3 in females, increased by factors of 1.6 and 2.1, respectively. By the time the child reaches 2 years of age, intracranial volume has reached 77% (1150 cm 3 in males and 1000 cm 3 in females) and, by 5 years, 90% (1350 cm 3 in males and 1200 cm 3 in females) of the volume observed at age 15 years. The change in intracranial volume that occurs with age is not linear, but there seems to be a segmental pattern. Three main periods can be distinguished, each lasting approximately 5 years (0-5, 5-10, and 10-15 years), during which the growth of intracranial volume is linear. Throughout childhood, males have higher intracranial volumes than females, with a similar growth pattern.

6) If these differences are present at birth is it not possible that they are the source of the knowledge that one's gender has been wrongly assigned and that one's body has come out all wrong?

Disclaimer: I'm a cis woman and so may be cisplaining; if so it's because I haven't read the thread in full (I think and hope!).

tl;dr: Some sex-based differences in the brain are present at birth which suggests it's possible to have a gender from birth that is different to external sex characteristics and independent of gender socialisation.
 
It seems to me that some people, like Athos, are mostly trying to explain and understand how and why trans exclusionary folk think and say the things they do. And that is absolutely fine. In fact, it's essential. We should understand why people think the things they think, even when their views are vile. Athos has gone to great pains to also say he disagrees with their beliefs.

Where it crosses a line (this part is not specifically targeted at Athos but the discussion more widely) is when that argument starts suggesting that having tried to understand and explain the why, we should go further and accept a little bit of bigotry.

No.

Understanding why trans exclusionary people feel the way they feel doesn't mean we don't go on to challenge their beliefs. Having reasons for believing something doesn't exempt you from criticism for those beliefs, or exempt you from having those reasons argued with. While we try to understand why different forms of racism take hold in certain sections of society, we don't then say, "well, they've been shafted themselves in other ways, you can understand why they'd look for someone to scapegoat, and who can blame them with the media being what the media is... let them be racist, let's not try and challenge it, let's not work to educate, let's not try to fix the broken media, let's not try to fix the underlying power structures that foster and create this... leave them to it, eh?"

If we're talking specifically about people on this thread, it seems to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the people arguing against trans exclusionary positions have already been through the hows and the whys, and are moving on to challenging. Whereas those they are butting heads with aren't moving beyond the hows and the whys. That's why there seems to be an argument even though the hows and the whys keep insisting they personally are not trans exclusionary. Because when you're suggesting we should stop and only focus on understanding why trans exclusionary positions exist, you're telling us to not bother challenging it, which in turn can start to sound like you condone it, or perhaps think that the right to be trans exclusionary and to play a part in a world that is very fucking scary and shitty for trans people is more important than being able to live your life without feeling like you're going to harm yourself or be harmed for being who you are. For wanting to just be a person.

For the record, I specifically stated that the reason I think it necessarily to understand the positions of those who'd seek to exclude trans women is in the hope of a dialogue that will ultimately result in them reconsidering their views.
 
Tbh Mation you may well be cisplaining but I'm needing to check my cis privilege. Clearly. I've not wanted to engage with this thread particularly because clumsy. I'd come over as terf I reckon.. When actually not terf but very much gender as social construct.
 
Tbh Mation you may well be cisplaining but I'm needing to check my cis privilege. Clearly. I've not wanted to engage with this thread particularly because clumsy. I'd come over as terf I reckon.. When actually not terf but very much gender as social construct.
This was what was behind my post. I think that our widely-used language is insufficient for this. I agree that gender is a social construct. I just think that we use the word gender to incorporate 2 different things and end up talking at cross-purposes. I agree that gender - as in gender socialisation - is a social construct, necessarily. But I also believe, based on what trans people say and the evidence from brain research, that there is a difference, present from birth, that comes before socialisation can happen, but that isn't about external characteristics - i.e. it's in the brain. In this scenario, brain overrules body and also overrules socialisation; it's the main arbiter (for everyone) of what makes us feel the gender we feel we are. Does that make sense?
 
This was what was behind my post. I think that our widely-used language is insufficient for this. I agree that gender is a social construct. I just think that we use the word gender to incorporate 2 different things and end up talking at cross-purposes. I agree that gender - as in gender socialisation - is a social construct, necessarily. But I also believe, based on what trans people say and the evidence from brain research, that there is a difference, present from birth, that comes before socialisation can happen, but that isn't about external characteristics - i.e. it's in the brain. In this scenario, brain overrules body and also overrules socialisation; it's the main arbiter (for everyone) of what makes us feel the gender we feel we are. Does that make sense?

Which means then there's a spectrum, so cis/trans also becomes binary as someone mentioned earlier.
 
Which means then there's a spectrum, so cis/trans also becomes binary as someone mentioned earlier.
Yes, a spectrum. And where there's a spectrum, there are people at or towards either end of it. Which means we can take at face value the people who tell us that they're at one or other end of it. Except that it's not a linear spectrum. Three spectra (at least!) interact.

Sex characteristics: female --> male
Brain at birth: female --> male
Gender socialisation: female --> male

Imo :oops:
 
Which I guess is what Jack Monroe is on about, but it confuses me massively all of this. I'm still very cold on privilege theory.
That wasn't where I'm coming from. I'm not talking about privilege at all, and don't know Jack Monroe well enough to know how to counter (just that the bits I've come across seem dodgy)
 
That wasn't where I'm coming from. I'm not talking about privilege at all, and don't know Jack Monroe well enough to know how to counter (just that the bits I've come across seem dodgy)

No, sorry, I know you weren't. Just my previous comment about there being a spectrum reminded me of Jack Monroe recently claiming she's trans - but neither male nor female - and then I tie that in with her support for the ripper museum and her working class recipe 'advice' and then growl a bit.
 
Which means then there's a spectrum, so cis/trans also becomes binary as someone mentioned earlier.

Which I guess is what Jack Monroe is on about, but it confuses me massively all of this. I'm still very cold on privilege theory.

Trans doesn't have to be binary in the way that you are a trans woman or trans man in the traditional sense of a cis gender binary (i.e. that there are women and there are men and that is that).

If we say gender is a spectrum, it means there are cis men and women, there are trans men and women, and there are people who don't quite fit either of those positions. That seems to be where Monroe is coming from, that they are trans but they are not part of the traditional cis/trans binary that we've been shown in the media so far. Agender people fall somewhere along this spectrum, as does anyone who calls themselves gender fluid, genderqueer, people who are intersex, and so on.

I don't much like the idea of a spectrum for this particular subject, tbh, because it suggests cis is at one end and trans is at the other in some kind of 'opposite' position to one another. I don't think that's the case. I prefer thinking about it as a ball, I suppose: imagine a ball and you can draw a dot on it with a felt tip pen, and that is where you locate your gender. Someone else can draw a dot somewhere else on that ball and that is where they locate their gender. This ball can fill up with dots, and none of them have a more preferential position in relation to any of the others, they all just exist on this ball together, just not all in the same location. The metaphor isn't perfect, but it helps me to conceptualise gender locations in that way rather than a spectrum.
 
No, sorry, I know you weren't. Just my previous comment about there being a spectrum reminded me of Jack Monroe recently claiming she's trans - but neither male nor female - and then I tie that in with her support for the ripper museum and her working class recipe 'advice' and then growl a bit.

I'm unsure what their gender has to do with their stance on those other issues. We can critique anyone's feminism, and anyone's class consciousness, but how does Monroe's coming out as non-binary trans impact on that in this discussion?

(Incidentally, they have requested the they/them/their pronouns, not he or she.)
 
No, sorry, I know you weren't. Just my previous comment about there being a spectrum reminded me of Jack Monroe recently claiming she's trans - but neither male nor female - and then I tie that in with her support for the ripper museum and her working class recipe 'advice' and then growl a bit.
Seriously? Support for the ripper museum? Ew. That's... vile. But not (solely) attributable to any place on that 3d specturm, I don't think.
 
Back
Top Bottom