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Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

I guess this is just the reality of being not-really-new-but-still a new movement, but what baffles me is the number of inconsistencies in the trans discussion.


The first is the whole essentialist vs. anti-essentialist debate. The discussion itself will never be resolved, it goes back millennia, and as such must be, and is, present here. In the trans-movement these positions are living somewhat harmoniously side by side. The “I have a female/male brain in the wrong body” side-by-side with “gender is a non-binary, experienced identity that is individually chosen”. Not always that harmoniously, re: truescum, but it seems like these diametrically opposing views are presented as a united front when it comes to any confrontation with opposition. And since the TERF position on this is in itself self-contradictory (gender is a social construct, but men are essentially men), the arguments against it are wildly squiggling in response.


Secondary is the insistence that being trans entails that the transpersons experiences are unique in a way anyone who is not trans can not comprehend. This is a totally valid argument for giving people with this life experience a privileged position when it comes to defining the reality of being trans, and how to frame political views in the political struggle. But at the same time the opposite claim, that being cis gives an unique life experience, seems to me to be dismissed as transphobic.


There are many more, I will limit myself to my third problem, which is not much of a problem, but still seems curious. We are against any binary categorisation of gender, but we will still introduce the binary cis/trans. I don´t have a problem with it, but it seems strangly self-contradictory to me.
 
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redsquirrel said:
Well I don't think it's very helpful in those cases either.

Trying to divide the world up into racists and non-racists is often useless, see the Fat White Family thread for a perfect example. While ideological racists still exist in todays Britain they are a fraction of the population, writing off huge swathes of the population simply as racists as if it's some binary state helps no one. In fact it's precisely that type of nonsense that has help feed the rise in UKIP.
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'Writing off', no, clearly not. But calling racism racism, yes. Always. Many people are not 'simply racists'. They are many other things as well, but in addition to those things, they also have racist ideas of one kind or another. And no, you should never be backward in saying that.

Thing is you yourself have fallen into the same trap here by identifying 'ideological racists' and contrasting them with everyone else.

I don't really get your point here. Are you saying that it should be ok to tolerate a little bit of racism? If not, then what exactly are you saying?
 
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smokedout said:
The analogy is not exact, how could it be? My point was that once a lot of people didn't believe being gay was wrong, they didn't believe 'gay' really existed. They denied people the right to determine their own sexuality by erasing it from legitimate existence. Even the most moderate terf belives that transsexuality doesn't exist, it can't exist, that's why trans-women can't be women. Denial of transsexuality is what lies behind that belief. That someone isnt really what they feel they are, and has no right to feel that way, even if someone to all intents and purposes is virtually identical to a cis woman - and dont forget there is now a generation of young people who are trans (women) who have never experienced male puberty, who may have lived and been raised as girls, who have primary and secondary female sexual characteristics, fucks sake give it a couple of decades and they might have wombs and ovaries. To suggest they aren't women is nonsensical, bigoted and offensive, and unless you want to buy into patriachal ideas that femininity or beauty is what defines womanhood then this includes all trans-women, however they present and how far they decide to medically transition.
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I'm not sure I accept the idea that "even the most moderate terf belives that transsexuality doesn't exist." Whilst some crackpots believe that it's a cover for perverted men wanting to infiltrate, many do accept that trans women sincerely believe that they are woman (and don't tell them they have no right to feel that); they just don't accept that believing it makes it so - they define their own gender in way that does not include trans women. I don't think they're right, but I'm not sure the anology with homosexuality holds up, really. Nor does the idea that their definition is "nonsensical"; I happen to subscribe to another definition, but that's becasue it seems to me to be unnecessarily harmful to deny that trans women are women, rather than because there is any logical imperative that requires us to admit it (albeit the argument about trans women who have not ben socialised as males and gone through male puberty comes closest). After all, we don't extend the 'you are what you feel you are' logic to many other areas.
 
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Athos said:
I'm not sure I accept the idea that "even the most moderate terf belives that transsexuality doesn't exist." Whilst some crackpots believe that it's a cover for perverted men wanting to infiltrate, many do accept that trans women sincerely believe that they are woman (and don't tell them they have no right to feel that); they just don't accept that believing it makes it so - they define their own gender in way that does not include trans women. I don't think they're right, but I'm not sure the anology with homosexuality holds up, really. Nor does the idea that their definition is "nonsensical"; I happen to subscribe to another definition, but that's becasue it seems to me to be unnecessarily harmful to deny that trans women are women, rather than because there is any logical imperative that requires us to admit it (albeit the argument about trans women who have not ben socialised as males and gone through male puberty comes closest). After all, we don't extend the 'you are what you feel you are' logic to many other areas.
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what it comes down to for me is that they aren't just defining their own identity, but are defining that of others.

and while governments and other authorities don't extend the same logic, a lot of people do. to the point that the gatekeepuing behavior of terf groups seems not so much like a grouping, but another attempt to claim the position of an authority. a rather annoying more feminist than thou. that gives them and only them the ability to be right.
 
toggle said:
what it comes down to for me is that they aren't just defining their own identity, but are defining that of others.

and while governments and other authorities don't extend the same logic, a lot of people do. to the point that the gatekeepuing behavior of terf groups seems not so much like a grouping, but another attempt to claim the position of an authority. a rather annoying more feminist than thou. that gives them and only them the ability to be right.
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I find it slightly ironic, tbh, that such definitions are in reality amazingly crude. Greer's position is that you must have a vagina to be a woman, and that's that. It's a massively reductionist position.

There's also a sinister side to such gatekeeping behaviour. A friend of mine lived for a time in a female separatist community set up in a remote valley in Yorkshire. Many of the women there were aggressive sexual predators, ready to pounce on any 'fresh meat' that arrived. The idea that women providing male-free spaces are necessarily providing safe spaces is itself hugely questionable. This particular place struck me from my friend's stories as, in reality, a dangerous and controlling cult.
 
toggle said:
what it comes down to for me is that they aren't just defining their own identity, but are defining that of others.

and while governments and other authorities don't extend the same logic, a lot of people do. to the point that the gatekeepuing behavior of terf groups seems not so much like a grouping, but another attempt to claim the position of an authority. a rather annoying more feminist than thou. that gives them and only them the ability to be right.
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Do you not think that redefining gender as something essential, a feeling located in the brain/mind/soul rather than something that is socially constructed, is defining other people's identity though? I think this is what many of the women (not radical feminists) whose views I have read on sites like mumsnet have as a concern. Can you see that for many feminists, gender being an essential part of you, separate from either biology or lived experience/socialisation, feels like a backward step and some naturally are worried about it being accepted uncritically.
 
I think this gender essentialism will prove to be a bit of a red herring. I think biology will come to see trans people as having a biological sex of the body which does not correspond to the biological sex of their brain, so they choose to align their gender with the sex of their brain rather than the sex of their body.
 
And
Thora said:
Do you not think that redefining gender as something essential, a feeling located in the brain/mind/soul rather than something that is socially constructed, is defining other people's identity though? I think this is what many of the women (not radical feminists) whose views I have read on sites like mumsnet have as a concern. Can you see that for many feminists, gender being an essential part of you, separate from either biology or lived experience/socialisation, feels like a backward step and some naturally are worried about it being accepted uncritically.
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Which is hardly justification for what has been happening to trans people. Trans people don't want to exclude TERFs, just want TERFs to stop excluding us.if we were accommodated as women it would not impact on TERFs one bit, except maybe for the ideological repercussions from accepting us for who we say we are.
When a trans parliamentary candidate faces deselction proceedings for just saying she's a woman then there's a problem. And it's not a problem for trans its a problem for TERFs, because that is anti democratic.
 
Jeff Robinson said:
Just seen this on FB and thought this would be the appropriate thread to post it:



Bath Magistrates, Prison Govenor of HM Prison Bristol, British Judicial System: Stop Transgender Woman Tara Hudson From Being Sent To An All-Male Prison in Bristol
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It has been the practice for decades to house post-operative transsexuals in prisons according to their acquired gender.

I think the problem here is that in this case, she had no documentation to show her status. She has no passport and did not have one of those stupid 'certificates' that the law requires nowadays.
 
I
Sirena said:
It has been the practice for decades to house post-operative transsexuals in prisons according to their acquired gender.

I think the problem here is that in this case, she had no documentation to show her status. She has no passport and did not have one of those stupid 'certificates' that the law requires nowadays.
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I think she may also be pre operative.
 
bluescreen said:
According to the BBC, she's had reconstructive surgery, but in any case I don't see why that should be any part of the issue. She should be in a women's prison. It's an appalling situation.
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Surgery makes no difference whatsoever.

It's one of my big fears at the moment - why I'm not going to any protests at the moment - you never know.
 
bi0boy said:
I think this gender essentialism will prove to be a bit of a red herring. I think biology will come to see trans people as having a biological sex of the body which does not correspond to the biological sex of their brain, so they choose to align their gender with the sex of their brain rather than the sex of their body.
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The idea that the brain can have a biological sex is a form of essentialism. Note "brain/mind/soul" in Thora's post:
Thora said:
Do you not think that redefining gender as something essential, a feeling located in the brain/mind/soul rather than something that is socially constructed, is defining other people's identity though? I think this is what many of the women (not radical feminists) whose views I have read on sites like mumsnet have as a concern. Can you see that for many feminists, gender being an essential part of you, separate from either biology or lived experience/socialisation, feels like a backward step and some naturally are worried about it being accepted uncritically.
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Another way of considering this is the more basic question of what gender actually means at all. It is a topic that has been frequently grappled with in this thread but I've yet to see a satisfactory result of that grappling.

What does it mean to "feel like a man"? I'm pretty sure I don't feel much like the man sitting next to me, let alone one from a completely different social environment or background. There are things I feel that are in common with (some) other men and there are other things I feel that are more in common with (some) women.

If we can't articulate what the statement truly means, how can anybody say they "feel like a man", regardless of their biological make-up? It becomes a totally non-determinative statement. You can certainly say that you feel aligned to the more common social expectations of what being a man means, but that is a response to external expectation, not internal imperative. If that's what the statement means then I have every sympathy with it, but I think it's a shame that those social expectations exist in the first place, and it's an inherently reactionary position. But if something else is meant, I am genuinely at a loss as to what that something is.
 
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